Will Aston emerge as a winner this season?
Discussion
HustleRussell said:
I predict they have leapfrogged Mclaren and will be fifth. Maybe a challenger for Alpine, but still with at least half a dozen of the usual suspects up the road from them.
What's your reasoning for this?As bad as Danny Ricc was last year he still managed to finish above both Vettel and Stroll in the WDC.
Norris appears to be as good as Alonso at getting the best out of a bad/tricky car and both on paper appear to score the bulk of points this year.
If AM do have a car that had better consistency at mixing with McLaren Piastri would arguably be on paper better than Stroll and bagging more points.
HustleRussell said:
It'll remain, for several seasons to come, a real shortcoming of the sport- customer teams just aren't going to beat PU manufacturer teams. Until 2026 there are only four PU manufacturers. Customer teams need some misfortune to befall manufacturer teams in order to get a win or even the odd podium. However, new regs year one has been and gone and the cars are only going to get more reliable and better understood. I predict that the problem will actually grow, as Alpine should cement itself as solidly the fourth team. If that happens, we'll be having to look as far back as the fifth row for 'best of the rest', and there'll be as many as eight cars ahead of that driver in the pecking order.
Rubbish. RB had no problem beating their engine supplier.entropy said:
HustleRussell said:
I predict they have leapfrogged Mclaren and will be fifth. Maybe a challenger for Alpine, but still with at least half a dozen of the usual suspects up the road from them.
What's your reasoning for this?As bad as Danny Ricc was last year he still managed to finish above both Vettel and Stroll in the WDC.
Norris appears to be as good as Alonso at getting the best out of a bad/tricky car and both on paper appear to score the bulk of points this year.
If AM do have a car that had better consistency at mixing with McLaren Piastri would arguably be on paper better than Stroll and bagging more points.
Smollet said:
HustleRussell said:
I reckon Danny Ric was a canary in a coal mine for Mclaren. The problem is he keeled over some time in 2021 and Mclaren seem to have just kept mining anyway.
Mclaren need to examine why, year after year, they create weird cars which drivers struggle to understand.
Lando has flattered the car, and I'm sure Oscar will mould to it... but if the car is still edgey their performances are going to be irratic.
They lost the plot in 2013. They arguably had the fastest car in 2012 then went down a radical route that just didn’t work. They haven’t been the same since. Mclaren need to examine why, year after year, they create weird cars which drivers struggle to understand.
Lando has flattered the car, and I'm sure Oscar will mould to it... but if the car is still edgey their performances are going to be irratic.
HustleRussell said:
I know it's kind of contrary to what you're saying Muzzer but that's another risk to Mclaren isn't it- the churn. They'll definitely miss Andreas Seidl on the operational side, and on the technical they're yet to make a solid car under James Key. Something hasn't gelled there.
Also they've been changing engine, lubricant and fuel partners as though they're lightbulbs.
Reports from the 2023 Mclaren launch were of a subdued occasion. This time last year it was long faces all 'round by the end of the Bahrain race weekend...Also they've been changing engine, lubricant and fuel partners as though they're lightbulbs.
It brings me no pleasure to say all of this because if I have a team, it's Mclaren.
I think 'best of the rest' would be a return to the mean for Team Silverstone. They and Alpine seemed to develop well last year.
HustleRussell said:
Reports from the 2023 Mclaren launch were of a subdued occasion. This time last year it was long faces all 'round by the end of the Bahrain race weekend...
It brings me no pleasure to say all of this because if I have a team, it's Mclaren.
I think 'best of the rest' would be a return to the mean for Team Silverstone. They and Alpine seemed to develop well last year.
God i really hope they are faking this.It brings me no pleasure to say all of this because if I have a team, it's Mclaren.
I think 'best of the rest' would be a return to the mean for Team Silverstone. They and Alpine seemed to develop well last year.
vulture1 said:
HustleRussell said:
Reports from the 2023 Mclaren launch were of a subdued occasion. This time last year it was long faces all 'round by the end of the Bahrain race weekend...
It brings me no pleasure to say all of this because if I have a team, it's Mclaren.
I think 'best of the rest' would be a return to the mean for Team Silverstone. They and Alpine seemed to develop well last year.
God i really hope they are faking this.It brings me no pleasure to say all of this because if I have a team, it's Mclaren.
I think 'best of the rest' would be a return to the mean for Team Silverstone. They and Alpine seemed to develop well last year.
Aston-Martin, on the other hand, seem to have money, although throughout the team's history they seem to have been blighted by autocratic senior management, many of whom have "entrepreneurial" backgrounds, which inevitably brings a focus on the bottom line, and a keen eye on cost reduction. In their guise as Force India, they continually produced results above and beyond their "loaves and fishes" operational facilities, especially when the men at the helm, Vijay Mallya and Roy Sahara became distracted by their "business interests".
Unfortunately, the current entrepreneur-in-chief has a vested interest in keeping very close to the team's operations, both at their shiny new factory and trackside, and entrepreneurs don't necessarily have the mindset required to run successful racing teams.
Alonso seems to have an ability worthy of Chris Amon when it comes to picking a team in which to deploy his talents, and at some point there's going to be a confrontation with Stroll Snr, and a frank exchange of views. Many are secretly looking forward to this, but would it benefit the team to see the Strolls walk away? Lance isn't a bad driver, and he's certainly one of the best in wet conditions, but there are better drivers with less backing who could do a better job over the course of a season, but while daddy effectively owns the team, he'll stay.
Of the three "midfield, best-of-the-rest" teams, unless another team has got a double-diffuser type of advantage hidden away, I'd predict Alpine to finish above Aston and McLaren. But the scrap between the three of them will be fascinating to watch.
Dermot O'Logical said:
I think that the underlying problem for McLaren remains the lack of money, given that the Group as a whole has had to sell off the family silver and jewellery in order to survive. The situation will be ameliorated somewhat by the cost cap, but there's not much they can do in the way of infrastructure upgrades. Lando Norris could end up as a frustrated wasted talent, which would be a terrible shame.
Aston-Martin, on the other hand, seem to have money, although throughout the team's history they seem to have been blighted by autocratic senior management, many of whom have "entrepreneurial" backgrounds, which inevitably brings a focus on the bottom line, and a keen eye on cost reduction. In their guise as Force India, they continually produced results above and beyond their "loaves and fishes" operational facilities, especially when the men at the helm, Vijay Mallya and Roy Sahara became distracted by their "business interests".
Unfortunately, the current entrepreneur-in-chief has a vested interest in keeping very close to the team's operations, both at their shiny new factory and trackside, and entrepreneurs don't necessarily have the mindset required to run successful racing teams.
Alonso seems to have an ability worthy of Chris Amon when it comes to picking a team in which to deploy his talents, and at some point there's going to be a confrontation with Stroll Snr, and a frank exchange of views. Many are secretly looking forward to this, but would it benefit the team to see the Strolls walk away? Lance isn't a bad driver, and he's certainly one of the best in wet conditions, but there are better drivers with less backing who could do a better job over the course of a season, but while daddy effectively owns the team, he'll stay.
Of the three "midfield, best-of-the-rest" teams, unless another team has got a double-diffuser type of advantage hidden away, I'd predict Alpine to finish above Aston and McLaren. But the scrap between the three of them will be fascinating to watch.
Good post. Agree with all of that Aston-Martin, on the other hand, seem to have money, although throughout the team's history they seem to have been blighted by autocratic senior management, many of whom have "entrepreneurial" backgrounds, which inevitably brings a focus on the bottom line, and a keen eye on cost reduction. In their guise as Force India, they continually produced results above and beyond their "loaves and fishes" operational facilities, especially when the men at the helm, Vijay Mallya and Roy Sahara became distracted by their "business interests".
Unfortunately, the current entrepreneur-in-chief has a vested interest in keeping very close to the team's operations, both at their shiny new factory and trackside, and entrepreneurs don't necessarily have the mindset required to run successful racing teams.
Alonso seems to have an ability worthy of Chris Amon when it comes to picking a team in which to deploy his talents, and at some point there's going to be a confrontation with Stroll Snr, and a frank exchange of views. Many are secretly looking forward to this, but would it benefit the team to see the Strolls walk away? Lance isn't a bad driver, and he's certainly one of the best in wet conditions, but there are better drivers with less backing who could do a better job over the course of a season, but while daddy effectively owns the team, he'll stay.
Of the three "midfield, best-of-the-rest" teams, unless another team has got a double-diffuser type of advantage hidden away, I'd predict Alpine to finish above Aston and McLaren. But the scrap between the three of them will be fascinating to watch.
Dermot O'Logical said:
Lando Norris could end up as a frustrated wasted talent, which would be a terrible shame.
I found myself thinking similar thoughts recently, I really hope Lando has some tight performance clauses in that long term contract because I fear Mclaren won't bounce back quite so quickly when the new facilites come on stream. And if I was Mercedes Lando would be top of my list when it comes to replacing Lewis when he inevitably retires. I believe Daniel Riccardo didn't forget how to drive when he arrived at Mclaren, I think he is the more genuine benchmark of where that car/team were and that Lando has been working miracles up to now. I just hope he gets the chance to show the world his talent in a world beating car.
patmahe said:
Dermot O'Logical said:
Lando Norris could end up as a frustrated wasted talent, which would be a terrible shame.
I found myself thinking similar thoughts recently, I really hope Lando has some tight performance clauses in that long term contract because I fear Mclaren won't bounce back quite so quickly when the new facilites come on stream. And if I was Mercedes Lando would be top of my list when it comes to replacing Lewis when he inevitably retires. I believe Daniel Riccardo didn't forget how to drive when he arrived at Mclaren, I think he is the more genuine benchmark of where that car/team were and that Lando has been working miracles up to now. I just hope he gets the chance to show the world his talent in a world beating car.
If Norris is good enough one of the top teams will snap him up in the end. If he doesn't believe Mclaren can turn things around, there would be a lot to be said for angling for a drive at Sauber in the hope the Audi works team is quickly competitive.
Regarding Aston, they're always going to be hamstrung by having Stroll in the second car. He's by no means terrible, but he's clearly not good enough to have a place in a team which is fighting for championships, if Aston ever get their car there, unless it's as a dedicated number-2 driver like Perez. As others have said it's also not clear how much Stroll senior is meddling with the running of the team; it's pretty clear that having outside management interfering is never good for F1; just look at the mess the revolving door at Ferrari has caused. I think the have the money, the facilities, and potentially the staff to become a top team; the question is whether they will be allowed to have the correct culture.
Regarding Aston, they're always going to be hamstrung by having Stroll in the second car. He's by no means terrible, but he's clearly not good enough to have a place in a team which is fighting for championships, if Aston ever get their car there, unless it's as a dedicated number-2 driver like Perez. As others have said it's also not clear how much Stroll senior is meddling with the running of the team; it's pretty clear that having outside management interfering is never good for F1; just look at the mess the revolving door at Ferrari has caused. I think the have the money, the facilities, and potentially the staff to become a top team; the question is whether they will be allowed to have the correct culture.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 21st February 11:27
kambites said:
If Norris is good enough one of the top teams will snap him up in the end. If he doesn't believe Mclaren can turn things around, there would be a lot to be said for angling for a drive at Sauber in the hope the Audi works team is quickly competitive.
This makes some sense, since the new Audi F1 boss knows Lando well and is a big fan of his. Also, all the other top teams already have their own Golden Boy in place for the long term, so breaking into one of those teams might not be easy.patmahe said:
Dermot O'Logical said:
Lando Norris could end up as a frustrated wasted talent, which would be a terrible shame.
I found myself thinking similar thoughts recently, I really hope Lando has some tight performance clauses in that long term contract because I fear Mclaren won't bounce back quite so quickly when the new facilites come on stream. And if I was Mercedes Lando would be top of my list when it comes to replacing Lewis when he inevitably retires. I believe Daniel Riccardo didn't forget how to drive when he arrived at Mclaren, I think he is the more genuine benchmark of where that car/team were and that Lando has been working miracles up to now. I just hope he gets the chance to show the world his talent in a world beating car.
n3il123 said:
“Daddy daddy I’ve fallen off my bike can I stay in bed this week”.F1 teams must be littered with people that failed Alonso lol. Viewing public is broadly keen for him to succeed. The remainder are just symptomatic of modern behaviour of picking a side and hating the another.
As for Stroll sr it seems people forget he has been an F1 enthusiast for years and its probably the one thing that gets him out
of bed in the morning as all the other business interests must be boring in comparison.
As for Stroll sr it seems people forget he has been an F1 enthusiast for years and its probably the one thing that gets him out
of bed in the morning as all the other business interests must be boring in comparison.
I think that it will be fascinating to see which of the Mercedes customer teams does well this year.
I mostly hope (and maybe foolishly anticipate) McLaren being the strongest of the three customers, but it would be great to see Aston make a large step forwards, to get back to the potential podium prospects that they were when they were painted pink.
Williams, I hope, can challenge and overcome Alfa, and maybe Haas too.
I mostly hope (and maybe foolishly anticipate) McLaren being the strongest of the three customers, but it would be great to see Aston make a large step forwards, to get back to the potential podium prospects that they were when they were painted pink.
Williams, I hope, can challenge and overcome Alfa, and maybe Haas too.
Dermot O'Logical said:
I think that the underlying problem for McLaren remains the lack of money, given that the Group as a whole has had to sell off the family silver and jewellery in order to survive. The situation will be ameliorated somewhat by the cost cap, but there's not much they can do in the way of infrastructure upgrades.
You mean apart from the massive investments they've made in a modern, high end on-site windtunnel that comes online this year (well, it's running already for correlation and setup), completely new driver/track simulators, new suspension rigs that can be used in conjunction with the simulators (and to a limited amount in the tunnel itself within the constraints of the belt) and that they've on a rolling update on their supercomputers to massively more powerful Epyc based systems?Yes, definately. No infrastructure updates for Mclaren....apart from being the team doing possibly the biggest overhaul to their infrastructure currently.
Dermot O'Logical said:
Aston-Martin, on the other hand, seem to have money, although throughout the team's history they seem to have been blighted by autocratic senior management, many of whom have "entrepreneurial" backgrounds, which inevitably brings a focus on the bottom line, and a keen eye on cost reduction. In their guise as Force India, they continually produced results above and beyond their "loaves and fishes" operational facilities, especially when the men at the helm, Vijay Mallya and Roy Sahara became distracted by their "business interests".
I'm not sure Vijay Mallya was as bad an owner as you make out. There was decent money around, good midfield cars, nor did they have autocratic owners as Bob Fearnley effectively ran the team day to day. F1/FI was more or less a means to launder money and when the authorities came calling Mallya's priorities suddenly changed.Stroll Snr clearly wants what's best for his son and I can't see him as a penny pincher unless he runs out of credit options.
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