What do you think's going on at Mercedes right now then?

[HustleRussell]

maz8062 said:

The cost cap is not closing up the field.

What is closing up the field then? It's almost certainly the closest its ever been?

[mat205125]

Muzzer79 said:

I agree with this apart from the part in bold. What wasn't level about it prior to the budget cap?

Every team had the same opportunities to develop an engine like Mercedes did. Nothing was skewed in their favour. Let's not also pretend that Red Bull and Ferrari didn't have access to funding at the level of Mercedes.

That's like saying Red Bull had real difficulty in 2014 when they no longer had a dominant aero package with the blown floor - "in other words a level playing field".

True, they all did in respect to the rules permitting them to, however you must surely appreciate that the spending afforded to Toto through Daimler was in a whole different universe to that which Williams, Sauber, or Racing Point (Aston) were playing with,

Simply having a sport where everyone is welcome to spend as much as they possibly want to, or can afford to, is NOT the same as creating a level playing field.

F1 has done remarkably well to weather the storm of a decade of Toto and Daimler almost "buying" the titles ..... Unlimited spending wasn't as kind to Supertourers, Group C endurance, Group A / WRC etc etc.

[HustleRussell]

mat205125 said:

HustleRussell said:

Piginapoke said:

Blib said:

Piginapoke said:

Merc appear to be having real difficulty in working to a budget cap and no longer having a dominant engine- a level playing field in other words.

Ferrari spent as much as Mercedes. RB similar. Renault weren't exactly digging down behind the sofa cushions either.

And they all seem to be adapting to the budget cap better than Merc.

Red Bull being… the only team to have breached the cost cap?

...... who were caught, and punished in line with the scale of the breach.

Mercedes have had the resources and budget to tackle any issues they've encountered in the last decade, with sheer sledgehammer force, in terms of their spending.

They'd have nailed the porpoising and had a winning car after a couple of races last year, if they'd retained their previous levels of workforce, production and spending. They are yet to be able to demonstrate the ability to have the same kind of agility and speed of resolution finding, within the new ceiling that they've had imposed.

I'm not saying that Red Bull haven't done a good job, or that Mercedes have done a great job- I just think it's funny to congratulate Red Bull in particular for adapting so well to the budget cap when they were the only team to breach it.

[mat205125]

HustleRussell said:

maz8062 said:

The cost cap is not closing up the field.

What is closing up the field then? It's almost certainly the closest its ever been?

I watched a race from the good old days of 1993 on a DVD the other day.

Absolutely love the era, the cars, the names and the action, but only two cars finished on the lead lap. They were separated by over a minute, and by the time your got down to 5th place, the car was 3 laps behind!

The new regs are working, and the racing is better than its been for many years / eras

[mat205125]

HustleRussell said:

mat205125 said:

HustleRussell said:

Piginapoke said:

Blib said:

Piginapoke said:

Merc appear to be having real difficulty in working to a budget cap and no longer having a dominant engine- a level playing field in other words.

Ferrari spent as much as Mercedes. RB similar. Renault weren't exactly digging down behind the sofa cushions either.

And they all seem to be adapting to the budget cap better than Merc.

Red Bull being… the only team to have breached the cost cap?

...... who were caught, and punished in line with the scale of the breach.

Mercedes have had the resources and budget to tackle any issues they've encountered in the last decade, with sheer sledgehammer force, in terms of their spending.

They'd have nailed the porpoising and had a winning car after a couple of races last year, if they'd retained their previous levels of workforce, production and spending. They are yet to be able to demonstrate the ability to have the same kind of agility and speed of resolution finding, within the new ceiling that they've had imposed.

I'm not saying that Red Bull haven't done a good job, or that Mercedes have done a great job- I just think it's funny to congratulate Red Bull in particular for adapting so well to the budget cap when they were the only team to breach it.

Understandable, however it was a minor breach, and isn't THE reason that they have done such a good job.

[mattdavies]

mat205125 said:

HustleRussell said:

maz8062 said:

The cost cap is not closing up the field.

What is closing up the field then? It's almost certainly the closest its ever been?

I watched a race from the good old days of 1993 on a DVD the other day.

Absolutely love the era, the cars, the names and the action, but only two cars finished on the lead lap. They were separated by over a minute, and by the time your got down to 5th place, the car was 3 laps behind!

The new regs are working, and the racing is better than its been for many years / eras

Would argue some of the closest racing was 2021, Last year of the old regs.

The teams have started to close the gap to each other and advantage at the top had slowed as they reached the top of the curve

[PhilAsia]

mat205125 said:

HustleRussell said:

mat205125 said:

HustleRussell said:

Piginapoke said:

Blib said:

Piginapoke said:

Merc appear to be having real difficulty in working to a budget cap and no longer having a dominant engine- a level playing field in other words.

Ferrari spent as much as Mercedes. RB similar. Renault weren't exactly digging down behind the sofa cushions either.

And they all seem to be adapting to the budget cap better than Merc.

Red Bull being… the only team to have breached the cost cap?

...... who were caught, and punished in line with the scale of the breach.

Mercedes have had the resources and budget to tackle any issues they've encountered in the last decade, with sheer sledgehammer force, in terms of their spending.

They'd have nailed the porpoising and had a winning car after a couple of races last year, if they'd retained their previous levels of workforce, production and spending. They are yet to be able to demonstrate the ability to have the same kind of agility and speed of resolution finding, within the new ceiling that they've had imposed.

I'm not saying that Red Bull haven't done a good job, or that Mercedes have done a great job- I just think it's funny to congratulate Red Bull in particular for adapting so well to the budget cap when they were the only team to breach it.

Understandable, however it was a minor breach, and isn't THE reason that they have done such a good job.

How do you know that to be the case though?

It could be the first dollar that unlocked the performance, or it could be an overspend $1 dollar in the slot that unlocked the jackpot...

[HustleRussell]

mattdavies said:

mat205125 said:

HustleRussell said:

maz8062 said:

The cost cap is not closing up the field.

What is closing up the field then? It's almost certainly the closest its ever been?

I watched a race from the good old days of 1993 on a DVD the other day.

Absolutely love the era, the cars, the names and the action, but only two cars finished on the lead lap. They were separated by over a minute, and by the time your got down to 5th place, the car was 3 laps behind!

The new regs are working, and the racing is better than its been for many years / eras

Would argue some of the closest racing was 2021, Last year of the old regs.

The teams have started to close the gap to each other and advantage at the top had slowed as they reached the top of the curve

I'm not just being contrary for the sake of it, but apples to apples...

2021 Bahrain Q1 field spread was 2.8 seconds.

Even if you elect to exclude the two Haas cars on the basis that they had a rubbish car and two rookies the spread from 1st to 18th was 1.6 seconds.

2021 Q1 18th place to eventual pole delta was 3.1 seconds

2023 Bahrain Q1 field spread was 1.2 seconds (25% reduction compared to 2021 top 18)

2023 Q1 20th place to eventual pole delta was 2.5 seconds (19% reduction compared to 2021 top 18)

In both the 2021 and 2023 races, the lead driver lapped up to and including 12th place- but the 2021 race was interrupted by a full safety car while the 2023 race had only a virtual.

Interesting to note that 18th place qualifier representing the 'back of the grid' for the purpose of this comparison (Schumacher and Mazepin omitted) was one S. Vettel in an Aston Martin!

Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 15th March 14:34

[Pflanzgarten]

mat205125 said:

Pflanzgarten said:

maz8062 said:

Merc are apologising because they know they got it wrong and no matter how much money they have to spend, they can’t because there’s a cost cap in place and the pecking order is locked in for the 23/24 season for sure and most likely until 2026...

Merc have zero chance of bridging the gap this year and are now so far behind the curve that they’re unlikely to catch RBR for many, many years to come...

How do you explain the performance jump that Aston Martin made from 22-23 and why can't Mercedes make the same % improvement?

Aston has made a fantastic job of taking their purchased architecture, and applying the best of their in-house designs, and those inspired by observations of other teams concepts.

They've also put one of the sports all time most instinctive racers behind the wheel, and due to their 2022 ranking, they have ample opportunity to develop and test their designs for the first half of 2023 too.

Mercedes are at a junction where they must continue with their concept, or move in a new direction. Finishing in the top three in 2022 means they'll be making those decisions and developments with less resources than Aston, as well as six other teams too...

None of that means Mercedes can't make the same performance jump Aston Martin has, Aston Martin remember, were operating significantly below the budget cap.

[HustleRussell]

Pflanzgarten said:

Aston Martin remember, were operating significantly below the budget cap.

When?

[MustangGT]

mat205125 said:

You confuse the accounting with some kind of closed shop syndicate run by a mafia type FIA.

Time to take off the foil hats!

As an ex-accountant myself I know all too well how easy it is to fudge figures. Given the actions of the FIA and F1 during 2021, 2022 and in earlier years, I have no idea whether what I described actually happened, but, I do know that it is entirely possible and that we will never know the truth.

[500TORQUES]

mat205125 said:

Muzzer79 said:

Every team had the same opportunities to develop an engine like Mercedes did. Nothing was skewed in their favour. Let's not also pretend that Red Bull and Ferrari didn't have access to funding at the level of Mercedes.

True, they all did in respect to the rules permitting them to, however you must surely appreciate that the spending afforded to Toto through Daimler was in a whole different universe to that which Williams, Sauber, or Racing Point (Aston) were playing with,

Williams, Sauber, Racing Point (Aston) and other teams don't make engines. If you want to play the team spend game, Red Bull, in a budget cap era, are effectively doubling their budget because they are becoming an engine manufacturer.

To compare the teams budgets as they were, you need to strip out the engine side of the costs from Ferrari and Mercedes and Renault/Alpine, you will then add the cost of the engine at the FIA mandated cap that was in place, that gives you a more balanced view of budgets spent on the racing cars.

Going forward and now in place, F1 is by design, no longer a level playing field. The rules are designed specifically to punish the teams that are currently successful and advantage the teams that are currently not successful. The level playing field is gone.

[Pflanzgarten]

HustleRussell said:

Pflanzgarten said:

Aston Martin remember, were operating significantly below the budget cap.

When?

Sorry I'm talking cobblers!

[PhilAsia]

HustleRussell said:

mattdavies said:

mat205125 said:

HustleRussell said:

maz8062 said:

The cost cap is not closing up the field.

What is closing up the field then? It's almost certainly the closest its ever been?

I watched a race from the good old days of 1993 on a DVD the other day.

Absolutely love the era, the cars, the names and the action, but only two cars finished on the lead lap. They were separated by over a minute, and by the time your got down to 5th place, the car was 3 laps behind!

The new regs are working, and the racing is better than its been for many years / eras

Would argue some of the closest racing was 2021, Last year of the old regs.

The teams have started to close the gap to each other and advantage at the top had slowed as they reached the top of the curve

I'm not just being contrary for the sake of it, but apples to apples...

2021 Bahrain Q1 field spread was 2.8 seconds.

Even if you elect to exclude the two Haas cars on the basis that they had a rubbish car and two rookies the spread from 1st to 18th was 1.6 seconds.

2021 Q1 18th place to eventual pole delta was 3.1 seconds

2023 Bahrain Q1 field spread was 1.2 seconds (25% reduction compared to 2021 top 18)

2023 Q1 20th place to eventual pole delta was 2.5 seconds (19% reduction compared to 2021 top 18)

In both the 2021 and 2023 races, the lead driver lapped up to and including 12th place- but the 2021 race was interrupted by a full safety car while the 2023 race had only a virtual.

Interesting to note that 18th place qualifier representing the 'back of the grid' for the purpose of this comparison (Schumacher and Mazepin omitted) was one S. Vettel in an Aston Martin!

Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 15th March 14:34

I believe that RBR were comfortable about the pole and were concentrating on race pace. 0.7 secs per lap quicker from lights out and being told to rein it in from halfway. RBR have pace in reserve.

Nothing wrong with the above as Merc did the same with their engine and aero advantage - except for the overspend, laughable penalties etc...

[Muzzer79]

mat205125 said:

Muzzer79 said:

I agree with this apart from the part in bold. What wasn't level about it prior to the budget cap?

Every team had the same opportunities to develop an engine like Mercedes did. Nothing was skewed in their favour. Let's not also pretend that Red Bull and Ferrari didn't have access to funding at the level of Mercedes.

That's like saying Red Bull had real difficulty in 2014 when they no longer had a dominant aero package with the blown floor - "in other words a level playing field".

True, they all did in respect to the rules permitting them to, however you must surely appreciate that the spending afforded to Toto through Daimler was in a whole different universe to that which Williams, Sauber, or Racing Point (Aston) were playing with,

Simply having a sport where everyone is welcome to spend as much as they possibly want to, or can afford to, is NOT the same as creating a level playing field.

F1 has done remarkably well to weather the storm of a decade of Toto and Daimler almost "buying" the titles ..... Unlimited spending wasn't as kind to Supertourers, Group C endurance, Group A / WRC etc etc.

It is a level playing field because anyone can spend the same amount of money. There's no inbuilt advantage that says that Mercedes can spend £***m but Racing Point can only spend £**m.

The fact that they can't afford is irrelevant. They have the same opportunity, therefore the playing field is level.

I may not be able to afford the same golf clubs as the guy next to me in a competition, but that's not to say the competition isn't a level playing field - we're playing the same course.

And that's not even mentioning the likes of Red Bull and Ferrari who absolutely did have access to the same resource level as Mercedes.

[Muzzer79]

Piginapoke said:

Muzzer79 said:

Piginapoke said:

Merc appear to be having real difficulty in working to a budget cap and no longer having a dominant engine- a level playing field in other words.

I agree with this apart from the part in bold. What wasn't level about it prior to the budget cap?

Every team had the same opportunities to develop an engine like Mercedes did. Nothing was skewed in their favour. Let's not also pretend that Red Bull and Ferrari didn't have access to funding at the level of Mercedes.

That's like saying Red Bull had real difficulty in 2014 when they no longer had a dominant aero package with the blown floor - "in other words a level playing field".

I disagree, Mercedes lobbied heavily for the 2014 engine regulations and spent a HUGE amount on the PU, giving them a baked in advantage than was only marginally eroded through regulation changes (no more party time etc). I know I’m in the minority but I think that the Merc domination did a lot of harm to the sport during this time.

What I don’t like is the sense of entitlement that the team now has, the letter to fans this week being a good example. It would be better advised to get its head down and address the problems (rather than doubling down on a flawed concept that looks a lot like stubbornness to me).

Ferrari had exactly the same opportunity (and access to resources) to invest in their PU. As did Renault and Honda.

I'm a little torn on your entitlement point. On the one hand, I don't see them blaming anyone but themselves. On the other, sometimes a reality check is required that you're not where you think you are - much like the one Mclaren got when they ejected the Honda partnership.

[thegreenhell]

Muzzer79 said:

Ferrari had exactly the same opportunity (and access to resources) to invest in their PU. As did Renault and Honda.

In the lead up to the new formula, yes. But as soon as the first season of hybrid started, the first point at which anyone could see where they were relative to the others with this brand new tech, any advantage or disadvantage was baked in by the allowable development tokens system, which only allowed limited development in limited areas. If you'd made a big mess of your engine design at the start, there was limited opportunity to catch up for a very long time, no matter how much budget you had to solve the issue.

[mat205125]

MustangGT said:

mat205125 said:

You confuse the accounting with some kind of closed shop syndicate run by a mafia type FIA.

Time to take off the foil hats!

As an ex-accountant myself I know all too well how easy it is to fudge figures. Given the actions of the FIA and F1 during 2021, 2022 and in earlier years, I have no idea whether what I described actually happened, but, I do know that it is entirely possible and that we will never know the truth.

How does your potential suspicions extend to the reasons for other teams not appealing or questioning any of the results??

[mat205125]

Pflanzgarten said:

mat205125 said:

Pflanzgarten said:

maz8062 said:

Merc are apologising because they know they got it wrong and no matter how much money they have to spend, they can’t because there’s a cost cap in place and the pecking order is locked in for the 23/24 season for sure and most likely until 2026...

Merc have zero chance of bridging the gap this year and are now so far behind the curve that they’re unlikely to catch RBR for many, many years to come...

How do you explain the performance jump that Aston Martin made from 22-23 and why can't Mercedes make the same % improvement?

Aston has made a fantastic job of taking their purchased architecture, and applying the best of their in-house designs, and those inspired by observations of other teams concepts.

They've also put one of the sports all time most instinctive racers behind the wheel, and due to their 2022 ranking, they have ample opportunity to develop and test their designs for the first half of 2023 too.

Mercedes are at a junction where they must continue with their concept, or move in a new direction. Finishing in the top three in 2022 means they'll be making those decisions and developments with less resources than Aston, as well as six other teams too...

None of that means Mercedes can't make the same performance jump Aston Martin has, Aston Martin remember, were operating significantly below the budget cap.

Of course not, however it'll plainly be harder for them, given they'll have reduced resources and wind tunnel time to do it with, compared to the seven teams that finished below them in 2022.

[maz8062]

mat205125 said:

MustangGT said:

mat205125 said:

You confuse the accounting with some kind of closed shop syndicate run by a mafia type FIA.

Time to take off the foil hats!

As an ex-accountant myself I know all too well how easy it is to fudge figures. Given the actions of the FIA and F1 during 2021, 2022 and in earlier years, I have no idea whether what I described actually happened, but, I do know that it is entirely possible and that we will never know the truth.

How does your potential suspicions extend to the reasons for other teams not appealing or questioning any of the results??

The teams are all the beneficiaries in all of this. Arguing among themselves will only damage the F1 brand and cost them money. There’s no relegation or promotion and the sport is valued at $20bn - there’s no incentive to argue the toss and shoot themselves in the foot.

The direction of travel of F1 is to grow the brand and make lots and lots of cash. The winner is not really that important because Sky will make sure that they’ll all get adequate TV exposure and the prize money and sponsorship deals makes F1 the place to be.

What RBR got away with last year and are still dominating the sport today without the teams still moaning about it is proof to me that the teams don't care.