What do you think's going on at Mercedes right now then?

[marine boy]

500TORQUES said:

marine boy said:

F1 spits out more people than it can consume

F1 manufactures human beings? That's a new one.

Motorsport is hard work, doesn't matter if it's F1 or any other series. It's not a job.

Never mentioned F1 manufactures humans, not sure where you got that idea from

Point I was trying to make is I'm seeing quite a few people leaving F1. More so recently.

They're leaving F1 after a few years, just when they're starting to be handy at their jobs

This isn't just a Mercedes problem but an F1 problem. Mercedes not winning will just be one more reason for Mercedes people to consider when thinking about staying or leaving

F1 has a very short term memory so a few Mercedes people may think it's a good time to cash in their chips with a move to another F1 team or some other category of motorsport

[500TORQUES]

Thats nothing new.

Their are lifers and there are those that burn out after a few years.

Motorsport work is brutal for most people.

[marine boy]

500TORQUES said:

Thats nothing new.

Their are lifers and there are those that burn out after a few years.

Motorsport work is brutal for most people.

Motorsport is not a job, it's hard work and it's brutal!!

Have a word with yourself, hours are long, it can be more difficult than it need be. So are many more worthy other jobs out there

Working in F1 has changed over the years, some parts for the better and some not

Long gone are the days when Mercedes could throw money and man power to change and fix the fundamental concept of a car.

Even when everything is going in the right direction it's incredibly difficult just keeping up let alone playing catch up

Mercedes acknowledge they have a mountain to climb by bringing back James Alison. If anyone can get the team back to winning, then James can

[super7]

Bear in mind RB’s ability to develop their car further this year is going to be restricted by 1) reduced wind tunnel & cfd time due to be the champions and 2) reduced wind tunnel & cfd due to cheating. They have at least 40% less time than the others….

So whilst Merc, Ferrari and i suppose Aston now have more development capability within the cap, RB have a hand tied behind their back!

Aston must arguably be in a very good position having an already fast car at the front and also having over 100% Aero time.

[TheDeuce]

I reckon we'll get to April the 1st and Merc will wheel out the real 2023 car

[500TORQUES]

marine boy said:

Motorsport is not a job, it's hard work and it's brutal!!

Have a word with yourself, hours are long, it can be more difficult than it need be. So are many more worthy other jobs out there

Working in F1 has changed over the years, some parts for the better and some not

Long gone are the days when Mercedes could throw money and man power to change and fix the fundamental concept of a car.

Even when everything is going in the right direction it's incredibly difficult just keeping up let alone playing catch up

Mercedes acknowledge they have a mountain to climb by bringing back James Alison. If anyone can get the team back to winning, then James can

You are the one highlighting employee churn. As i said, some stick it for life, many leave and find an easier life.

[Leithen]

super7 said:

Bear in mind RB’s ability to develop their car further this year is going to be restricted by 1) reduced wind tunnel & cfd time due to be the champions and 2) reduced wind tunnel & cfd due to cheating. They have at least 40% less time than the others….

So whilst Merc, Ferrari and i suppose Aston now have more development capability within the cap, RB have a hand tied behind their back!

Aston must arguably be in a very good position having an already fast car at the front and also having over 100% Aero time.

The only problem with this is that RB appear to have completely nailed the aero already and the budget that would have been spent on the restricted wind tunnel & CFD time can be spent on other performance areas.

[patmahe]

Clearly they decided that the progress and win late last year indicated that they were on the right track, they will have looked at other concepts but ultimately decided there was more to come from this one. They have now run into problem after problem with this concept and realised it will take longer to overcome these issues than it will to change concepts.

I think Mercedes have been massively impacted by the budget cap. Had this happened in previous seasons, they could just spent their way through until it was fixed. Now, efficient use of resources is the name of the game they have been at a bit of a loss.

I think they now need to treat 2023 as effectively one long test session, use the current car to prove what they can towards the 2024 car and if budget allows introduce a b spec closer to the 2024 concept somewhere along the way that proves whether they are on the right track. I'm sure they will study what Aston have done using their drivetrain very closely because it's now the leading Mercedes powered car and very benign. The Mercedes seems more peaky and needing to be in a narrow operating wind mow to achieve its no doubt very impressive peak performance figures, it just can't do this consistently or for long enough to keep it's tyres where they need to be in the race.

I'm sure I've oversimplified some incredibly complex issues and other factors such as internal politics may be at play here with power vacuums being created when staff left or changed roles. One way or another the car isn't fast enough over a race distance so they need a dramatic solution as clearly developing the current concept it proving to be more trouble than it's worth.

I hope they manage to maintain their no blame culture, I have worked in an organisation with a no blame culture and it cultivates creativity and an openness that encourages new thinking and new ideas.

I've also worked in an organisation with a strong blame culture and it just breeds resentment and fear and absolutely destroys creativity, eventually people find it easier to do nothing than try to offer solutions as they know if it goes wrong, finger pointing will start, if you offer nothing you can't be blamed. It's an awful and toxic way to work so Mercedes need to ensure they keep the good work practices they have while going through this transition phase.

[skwdenyer]

There are so many things at play here, but let's deal with what I think are the fundamental misconceptions first.

TheDeuce said:

RB were on the back foot for ten years but we're always interesting and competitive enough to be part of the story of most GP's.

Aero-wise, RB were never on the back foot.

Years ago, Ed Wood (who went on to become Chief Designer at Williams) told me he thought there were only 3 people in F1 who really, instinctively, grasped F1 cars, and the aero specifically: Murray, Newey and Byrne. Now, that pool may have widened, but Newey's fundamental, instinctive grasp is and always has been truly exceptional.

Compare RBR's performance to those who used the same engines. They annihilated Renault. They made McLaren look very ordinary. There's a reason manufacturers with works teams don't want to supply them

If the engines are now somewhat levelled, performance-wise, RBR should shine. They are.

mw88 said:

I'm no aerodynamicist, in fact I don't think I can even spell aerodynamicist but looking at the Red Bull/Aston side pods they'll be channeling air towards the diffuser and the beam wings which probably increases efficiency of the floor.

If you're pushing a large volume of air through a narrowing channel down the side of the car the air has to speed up (I think?) so they'll be energising the diffuser/beam wings more. Merc seem to have this higher up and don't have the extreme narrowing that others have.

I could be/probably am completely wrong though. That's why I'm not paid to design F1 cars

There's no "narrowing channel" in play here to somehow accelerate the flow - because the sky offers no vertical resistance This isn't about pressure so much as about flow, and what the quality of that flow is like (laminar - or at least well-ordered - vs turbulent).

One key issue is about lift-to-drag ratios (well, negative lift in this case). If you need more drag to generate your downforce, you're in trouble.

Turn your mind back to last year. Ferrari were the team to beat in Bahrain 2022 - they were quick out of the corners, and faster on the straights. RBR had a decent aero package, to be sure, but it wasn't delivering where they needed it to. So a *lot* of work happened behind the scenes to make up for that. Fast forward to 2023, and the RB19 is behaving just like the F1-75 did - fast out of the corners, quick at the end of the straights. But added to that, the RB19 is mighty through the corners, too. The GPS data for ALO/LEC/VER is interesting:



See how Ferrari are still ahead for much of the lap, yet losing out - the areas where VER is faster are areas he's a lot faster. That chart also rather bears out ALO's many claims of superiority - the stand-out is that he's monstering the apex speeds at almost every corner. Whether he's going a touch too deep (too much heroics at the expense of speed on the straight), or has more drag (his speed-trap speeds were 3-6 kph down on the other two), or lacks traction, or lacks power, isn't clear (but evidence points towards a power deficit). But he's definitely the class of the field in the medium and slow speed twisties.

How's it all changed over the year? In 2022, Mercedes had the fastest car in slow corners - they've lost that. Overall, the field has bunched-up a touch. Ferrari have effectively stayed stll, whilst the lower teams have moved forward a touch (by as much as 1s per lap). Only RBR of the front-runners has made a big step. Whether that is or is not related to their budget activities I don't know... But the implication is that the new rules (and, especially, the capping rules) are working for every team except RBR... The big test of those rules won't be this year, but next and thereafter.

[marine boy]

500TORQUES said:

You are the one highlighting employee churn. As i said, some stick it for life, many leave and find an easier life.

You're really not grasping what I'm highlighting as to what's going on at Mercedes

I'm an F1 lifer, a burnt out lifer, now a lifer for the 2nd time, have enjoyed working with a few of the names mentioned in this thread

Been, there done what Mercedes are going through, more than once, at more than one team, even with some of the people going through it again at Mercedes

Thought I'd add some perspective of what will be going on from my 1st hand experience.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my posts. Won't be making that mistake again so I'll leave this thread to F1 design experts like yourself

[Callum43]

marine boy said:

500TORQUES said:

You are the one highlighting employee churn. As i said, some stick it for life, many leave and find an easier life.

You're really not grasping what I'm highlighting as to what's going on at Mercedes

I'm an F1 lifer, a burnt out lifer, now a lifer for the 2nd time, have enjoyed working with a few of the names mentioned in this thread

Been, there done what Mercedes are going through, more than once, at more than one team, even with some of the people going through it again at Mercedes

Thought I'd add some perspective of what will be going on from my 1st hand experience.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my posts. Won't be making that mistake again so I'll leave this thread to F1 design experts like yourself

Suddenly a dank and snowy day has been made brighter for me . Before dinner tonight I shall raise my glass of Jameson’s to marine boy in thanks.

[mat205125]

skwdenyer said:

Really interesting graphic for the performance of the three teams / cars / drivers

Ferrari are definitely not lacking in pace on the straights, with Red Bull and Aston trading punches for corner speed.

With some improvements in downforce, Ferrari have a lot of potential.

[SturdyHSV]

marine boy said:

You're really not grasping what I'm highlighting as to what's going on at Mercedes

I'm an F1 lifer, a burnt out lifer, now a lifer for the 2nd time, have enjoyed working with a few of the names mentioned in this thread

Been, there done what Mercedes are going through, more than once, at more than one team, even with some of the people going through it again at Mercedes

Thought I'd add some perspective of what will be going on from my 1st hand experience.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my posts. Won't be making that mistake again so I'll leave this thread to F1 design experts like yourself

As (what I hope/expect to be) an early stages F1 lifer, I for one value your input

[500TORQUES]

marine boy said:

You're really not grasping what I'm highlighting as to what's going on at Mercedes

I'm an F1 lifer, a burnt out lifer, now a lifer for the 2nd time, have enjoyed working with a few of the names mentioned in this thread

Been, there done what Mercedes are going through, more than once, at more than one team, even with some of the people going through it again at Mercedes

Thought I'd add some perspective of what will be going on from my 1st hand experience.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my posts. Won't be making that mistake again so I'll leave this thread to F1 design experts like yourself

You are the person raising the issue of people leaving the sport, i am just offering my perspective of why.

Why do you think there is a high level of churn (not just in F1, but in every level of motorsport)? Why did you raise it in the first place if you don't want it discussed?

I've worked in motorsport a long time, it's never been a job that is a good place to build a life outside work, it's littered with failed marriages and people who eventually get disillusioned with that way of life and leave, often for much higher pay and better working conditions, many use it as a tick on the CV, people like myself, and you based on the time you have been there, see it as more than that.

Your work area in design is an area where it is easier to do the job for longer than the crews who travel to every race, or do the physically demanding roles, but even in that role it has it's challenges.

You didn't like my views, I'm sorry you have taken Umbridge with them, but you haven't offered an alternative view or any way to solve the issue that concerns you, an issue that you raised.

[Jasandjules]

marine boy said:

Motorsport is not a job, it's hard work and it's brutal!!

Have a word with yourself, hours are long, it can be more difficult than it need be. So are many more worthy other jobs out there

I sure feel sorry for the mechanics when a car is stuffed in Quali etc.. They pull an all nighter to fix then have to run the car in the race, THEN pack away that night too.

I also imagine spending a good 9 months of the year away from family has a huge impact.

And from what I can tell very few are rewarded what might be considered handsomely enough to justify the hours, family, work etc.

[vaud]

Jasandjules said:

I sure feel sorry for the mechanics when a car is stuffed in Quali etc.. They pull an all nighter to fix then have to run the car in the race, THEN pack away that night too.

Remember that all nighters are the exception now due to the curfew rule.

[500TORQUES]

vaud said:

Remember that all nighters are the exception now due to the curfew rule.

In F1, there are no restrictions in many other forms of motorsport.

[vaud]

500TORQUES said:

In F1, there are no restrictions in many other forms of motorsport.

True, but not many series have 23 races and a crazy travel schedule.

[isaldiri]

skwdenyer said:

See how Ferrari are still ahead for much of the lap, yet losing out - the areas where VER is faster are areas he's a lot faster. That chart also rather bears out ALO's many claims of superiority - the stand-out is that he's monstering the apex speeds at almost every corner.

GPS speeds are also a little simplistic in what they show and not necessarily a 'fair' representation of the degree a car might be superior to another. Ferrari have slightly faster speeds for much of the lap rather than 'are still ahead'. It's more that they are losing time to a (much) greater degree in the slow speed areas where they are slower than RB than gaining in the areas where they are faster in high speed sectors.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqZIgNNXwAE5dua?format...

https://twitter.com/AxisOfOversteer/status/1632108...

Edited by isaldiri on Wednesday 8th March 13:48

[sparta6]

Muzzer79 said:

sparta6 said:

What do you think's going on at Mercedes right now then?


Wolff searching for a new Michael Schumacher to close down their performance gap


good luck with that Toto

I doubt that.

They had the actual Michael Schumacher for a while and all he managed to do was trundle around in 8th, getting whipped by his young team mate.

yeah MSC should have stayed retired. Rosberg didn't deserve a medal for getting ahead of the old man