What do you think's going on at Mercedes right now then?

What do you think's going on at Mercedes right now then?

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Niponeoff

2,074 posts

26 months

Saturday 1st April 2023
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rdjohn said:
PhillipM said:
rdjohn said:
I would expect that in a well designed car the vertical CoG axis should run through the driver’s scull. While they cant move the drivers this year, they can move the CoG by repositioning the radiators and other stuff within the pods to make a significant difference. Lewis has said that just copying the RB pod profile in itself will not sort every aspect of his issues.
No they can't, the CoG longitudinally is strictly limited into a tiny range by the regs.
I appreciate that static mass is governed by this reg during qualifying.

4.2 Mass distribution
With the car resting on a horizontal plane the mass measured at the front and rear axles must not be less than the mass specified in Article 4.1 factored by 0.445 and 0.540 respectively at all times during the qualifying practice session. Rounding will be to nearest 0.5kg.
If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, its mass will be determined using a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate

But I would expect that it moves around a lot during a race, for each corner, with fuel burn and the dynamic loads created by the floor and wings.
Lewis was looking ptetty hench recently, maybe this had an effect..

Disclaimer: no trolling intended or implied. Apologies if my sense of humour offends.

BrettMRC

4,037 posts

159 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
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Is there any info yet on what failed in Georges car?

FNG

4,157 posts

223 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
quotequote all
maz8062 said:
Sandpit Steve said:
Well, they’ll be pretty happy this morning. 2nd and 3rd on the grid tomorrow.
The problem is that they’re the wrong way around. GR will be trying to stay ahead of LH, ditto LH trying to get ahead of GR to attack MV, which will leave FA to get past them both.

GR is a fast driver but Merc are making a mistake in my view allowing both drivers to do their own thing. GR is the future but he should be made to defer to LH while the team are trying to catch up to the front. Once they’re at the front the drivers can compete all that they want.

Ferrari did something similar with Vettel and LeClerc. Look where they are now. GR is benefiting from LH being there - the team are benefiting. But should they push it such that LH decides to call it quits, where will that leave them?

There’s only so many races that LH will allow himself to be beaten by GR without any chance of winning a race or the WDC, before he’ll start to consider his position. Winning is everything, losing is no where.
1) that didn't pan out - teams and drivers tend to start out with an optimistic view and deal with the knockbacks rather than expect the worst
2) if they wanted someone to defer to their teammate, they wouldn't have picked GR but would have stuck with VB v4.0 (or whatever number he's on now)
3) Ferrari tried to make CLC defer to SV, but he was faster, dealt with the car better, got better results, and so proved he could be the team leader that he now is... difference is Mercedes aren't trying to keep GR on the back foot
4) LH is being beaten by GR because GR is doing a better job at the moment. Historically LH has started the season slowly and built on a solid unspectacular start. There's every reason to think he will do the same, so there's no need for anyone to defer to him - is there?

Sandpit Steve

9,885 posts

73 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
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BrettMRC said:
Is there any info yet on what failed in Georges car?
Toto was suggesting after the race that it was an engine failure. It did sound like it was a cylinder or two short, as it pulled off the circuit. They’ll be carefully examining the whole PU as much as they can, after half a ton of extinguishant was poured into the back of the car.

Listening to the team radio, he reported some sort of deployment problem, and was told to pull over due to the fire.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=q3QOJWVMdtY

Ahonen

5,015 posts

278 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
PhillipM said:
rdjohn said:
I would expect that in a well designed car the vertical CoG axis should run through the driver’s scull. While they cant move the drivers this year, they can move the CoG by repositioning the radiators and other stuff within the pods to make a significant difference. Lewis has said that just copying the RB pod profile in itself will not sort every aspect of his issues.
No they can't, the CoG longitudinally is strictly limited into a tiny range by the regs.
I appreciate that static mass is governed by this reg during qualifying.

4.2 Mass distribution
With the car resting on a horizontal plane the mass measured at the front and rear axles must not be less than the mass specified in Article 4.1 factored by 0.445 and 0.540 respectively at all times during the qualifying practice session. Rounding will be to nearest 0.5kg.
If, when required for checking, a car is not already fitted with dry-weather tyres, its mass will be determined using a set of dry-weather tyres selected by the FIA technical delegate

But I would expect that it moves around a lot during a race, for each corner, with fuel burn and the dynamic loads created by the floor and wings.
The CoG will move by only the tiniest of amounts through the race because the fuel tank is positioned at the CoG. The height will change a little but of course these days the fuel volume is much smaller than it used to be in the V8 days, plus the cars are much heavier, so the impact is reduced. The current mandated weight distribution is much more rearward than the teams would like - in the mid 2000s (up to 2008) they would regularly run at around 49.5% or more forwards, then after '09 until '13 (I think) the maximum allowed was 47.5% and so every single car ran at 47.5%.

The packaging of a modern F1 is astonishingly tight and moving radiators etc is very difficult because there are so many considerations regarding the airflow into and out of the cooler ducts - there needs to be enough room within the inlet ducts to slow the air down without separation, for example. There are plenty more knock-on effects than that.

A 0.5% weight balance change is absolutely huge in F1 terms, by the way.

Muzzer79

9,806 posts

186 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
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FNG said:
maz8062 said:
Sandpit Steve said:
Well, they’ll be pretty happy this morning. 2nd and 3rd on the grid tomorrow.
The problem is that they’re the wrong way around. GR will be trying to stay ahead of LH, ditto LH trying to get ahead of GR to attack MV, which will leave FA to get past them both.

GR is a fast driver but Merc are making a mistake in my view allowing both drivers to do their own thing. GR is the future but he should be made to defer to LH while the team are trying to catch up to the front. Once they’re at the front the drivers can compete all that they want.

Ferrari did something similar with Vettel and LeClerc. Look where they are now. GR is benefiting from LH being there - the team are benefiting. But should they push it such that LH decides to call it quits, where will that leave them?

There’s only so many races that LH will allow himself to be beaten by GR without any chance of winning a race or the WDC, before he’ll start to consider his position. Winning is everything, losing is no where.
1) that didn't pan out - teams and drivers tend to start out with an optimistic view and deal with the knockbacks rather than expect the worst
2) if they wanted someone to defer to their teammate, they wouldn't have picked GR but would have stuck with VB v4.0 (or whatever number he's on now)
3) Ferrari tried to make CLC defer to SV, but he was faster, dealt with the car better, got better results, and so proved he could be the team leader that he now is... difference is Mercedes aren't trying to keep GR on the back foot
4) LH is being beaten by GR because GR is doing a better job at the moment. Historically LH has started the season slowly and built on a solid unspectacular start. There's every reason to think he will do the same, so there's no need for anyone to defer to him - is there?
There's absolutely no value in issuing team orders on a general basis whilst the car isn't winning. Number one/Number two driver is irrelevant whilst you're fighting for fifth and sixth - just maximise the result for the team.

The problem also, when trying to engineer results, is that if your man is 2nd on the grid and the other guy is 3rd, it's not as simple as ordering the guy in 2nd to defer to the other. That can go spectacularly wrong, as has been seen multiple times before. You can't tell George not to drive as fast in qualifying........

Let them race, then towards the end if you need to mess around with things, do it.

Looking at Vettel's career post-2018, I think Ferrari did exactly the right thing in allowing CLC to race him.....


Fundoreen

4,180 posts

82 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
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progress is going on. Im pretty glad they seem to still be in the ballpark and its a month till next race.
Alonso and AM must be even more pleased where they are of course.

maz8062

2,173 posts

214 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
quotequote all
FNG said:
maz8062 said:
Sandpit Steve said:
Well, they’ll be pretty happy this morning. 2nd and 3rd on the grid tomorrow.
The problem is that they’re the wrong way around. GR will be trying to stay ahead of LH, ditto LH trying to get ahead of GR to attack MV, which will leave FA to get past them both.

GR is a fast driver but Merc are making a mistake in my view allowing both drivers to do their own thing. GR is the future but he should be made to defer to LH while the team are trying to catch up to the front. Once they’re at the front the drivers can compete all that they want.

Ferrari did something similar with Vettel and LeClerc. Look where they are now. GR is benefiting from LH being there - the team are benefiting. But should they push it such that LH decides to call it quits, where will that leave them?

There’s only so many races that LH will allow himself to be beaten by GR without any chance of winning a race or the WDC, before he’ll start to consider his position. Winning is everything, losing is no where.
1) that didn't pan out - teams and drivers tend to start out with an optimistic view and deal with the knockbacks rather than expect the worst
2) if they wanted someone to defer to their teammate, they wouldn't have picked GR but would have stuck with VB v4.0 (or whatever number he's on now)
3) Ferrari tried to make CLC defer to SV, but he was faster, dealt with the car better, got better results, and so proved he could be the team leader that he now is... difference is Mercedes aren't trying to keep GR on the back foot
4) LH is being beaten by GR because GR is doing a better job at the moment. Historically LH has started the season slowly and built on a solid unspectacular start. There's every reason to think he will do the same, so there's no need for anyone to defer to him - is there?
Yes, you are right, but for me there is too much at stake for LH to continue to be beaten by GR on merit. Let’s not beat about the bush here - if GR beats LH in quali and final classification again this year, people will question LH’s status as the 🐐

My point is that beating a driver that has won multiple WDC’s doesn’t make said driver a shoe in for a WDC. Vettel and Ferrari had a system, a hierarchy, a focus that lent itself to challenge for a WDC. He’s been there, done it and has the t-shirt, 4 of them, so bringing in the cheeky upstart is great as a spectacle but it rarely works. RBR did it with Ricci. Ferrari with LEC. McLaren with Button and LH and now Mercedes with GR. In the absence of a clear car advantage, having a clear 1 and 2 driver has historically worked best in F1.

GR, in the same team as LH and having access to all of his data, traces, preparation etc is good for him, but what would happen if LH left? History tells us that GR will default to beating his team mate but will unlikely be able to lead the team against someone like Max as team leader.

Muzzer79

9,806 posts

186 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
quotequote all
maz8062 said:
Yes, you are right, but for me there is too much at stake for LH to continue to be beaten by GR on merit. Let’s not beat about the bush here - if GR beats LH in quali and final classification again this year, people will question LH’s status as the ??

My point is that beating a driver that has won multiple WDC’s doesn’t make said driver a shoe in for a WDC. Vettel and Ferrari had a system, a hierarchy, a focus that lent itself to challenge for a WDC. He’s been there, done it and has the t-shirt, 4 of them, so bringing in the cheeky upstart is great as a spectacle but it rarely works. RBR did it with Ricci. Ferrari with LEC. McLaren with Button and LH and now Mercedes with GR. In the absence of a clear car advantage, having a clear 1 and 2 driver has historically worked best in F1.

GR, in the same team as LH and having access to all of his data, traces, preparation etc is good for him, but what would happen if LH left? History tells us that GR will default to beating his team mate but will unlikely be able to lead the team against someone like Max as team leader.
This is bizarre.

If LH continues to be beaten by GR on merit then GR is the faster driver and Hamilton will need to accept that and adapt as necessary. Artificially creating things so that Lewis can win is.....nuts?

A number 1 and number 2 system clearly has benefits, but which driver assumes which role is defined by pace and ability, not by history.....
It also only usually works if you're fighting for championships, not individual results.


BrettMRC

4,037 posts

159 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
maz8062 said:
Yes, you are right, but for me there is too much at stake for LH to continue to be beaten by GR on merit. Let’s not beat about the bush here - if GR beats LH in quali and final classification again this year, people will question LH’s status as the ??

My point is that beating a driver that has won multiple WDC’s doesn’t make said driver a shoe in for a WDC. Vettel and Ferrari had a system, a hierarchy, a focus that lent itself to challenge for a WDC. He’s been there, done it and has the t-shirt, 4 of them, so bringing in the cheeky upstart is great as a spectacle but it rarely works. RBR did it with Ricci. Ferrari with LEC. McLaren with Button and LH and now Mercedes with GR. In the absence of a clear car advantage, having a clear 1 and 2 driver has historically worked best in F1.

GR, in the same team as LH and having access to all of his data, traces, preparation etc is good for him, but what would happen if LH left? History tells us that GR will default to beating his team mate but will unlikely be able to lead the team against someone like Max as team leader.
This is bizarre.

If LH continues to be beaten by GR on merit then GR is the faster driver and Hamilton will need to accept that and adapt as necessary. Artificially creating things so that Lewis can win is.....nuts?

A number 1 and number 2 system clearly has benefits, but which driver assumes which role is defined by pace and ability, not by history.....
It also only usually works if you're fighting for championships, not individual results.
I agree - Hamilton is probably still the most complete racer over a season, but at some point age will prevent him from maintaining his peak and it's only natural that he will become more consistently matched and outperformed.
Says nothing bad about Lewis, and quite a lot about George.

I'd actually enjoy seeing him be the tail gunner - we saw what Alonso did for Apline to ensure the team got a victory, no reason to expect anything less from Lewis at Mercedes.

That said, I think he is far from done and assisting bringing Mercedes back to the front could be a huge motivator, especially for the team as a whole.

PhilAsia

3,696 posts

74 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
maz8062 said:
Yes, you are right, but for me there is too much at stake for LH to continue to be beaten by GR on merit. Let’s not beat about the bush here - if GR beats LH in quali and final classification again this year, people will question LH’s status as the ??

My point is that beating a driver that has won multiple WDC’s doesn’t make said driver a shoe in for a WDC. Vettel and Ferrari had a system, a hierarchy, a focus that lent itself to challenge for a WDC. He’s been there, done it and has the t-shirt, 4 of them, so bringing in the cheeky upstart is great as a spectacle but it rarely works. RBR did it with Ricci. Ferrari with LEC. McLaren with Button and LH and now Mercedes with GR. In the absence of a clear car advantage, having a clear 1 and 2 driver has historically worked best in F1.

GR, in the same team as LH and having access to all of his data, traces, preparation etc is good for him, but what would happen if LH left? History tells us that GR will default to beating his team mate but will unlikely be able to lead the team against someone like Max as team leader.
This is bizarre.

If LH continues to be beaten by GR on merit then GR is the faster driver and Hamilton will need to accept that and adapt as necessary. Artificially creating things so that Lewis can win is.....nuts?

A number 1 and number 2 system clearly has benefits, but which driver assumes which role is defined by pace and ability, not by history.....
It also only usually works if you're fighting for championships, not individual results.
Agreed. Although I am a Lewis fan, if George is performing better then there is where the impetus goes. I am 50/50 atm on whether Lewis is slow starting, not giving things 100%, or perhaps a bit downhearted and his 100% is not his normal 100% level. Having been through the outcome of 2021, and seeing it was not necessary for the FIA to have seemingly backed Max, watching the 22, 23, and more-than-likely the 24 and 25 RBR rocket-ship win the WDC at a canter, I would understand...

maz8062

2,173 posts

214 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
maz8062 said:
Yes, you are right, but for me there is too much at stake for LH to continue to be beaten by GR on merit. Let’s not beat about the bush here - if GR beats LH in quali and final classification again this year, people will question LH’s status as the ??

My point is that beating a driver that has won multiple WDC’s doesn’t make said driver a shoe in for a WDC. Vettel and Ferrari had a system, a hierarchy, a focus that lent itself to challenge for a WDC. He’s been there, done it and has the t-shirt, 4 of them, so bringing in the cheeky upstart is great as a spectacle but it rarely works. RBR did it with Ricci. Ferrari with LEC. McLaren with Button and LH and now Mercedes with GR. In the absence of a clear car advantage, having a clear 1 and 2 driver has historically worked best in F1.

GR, in the same team as LH and having access to all of his data, traces, preparation etc is good for him, but what would happen if LH left? History tells us that GR will default to beating his team mate but will unlikely be able to lead the team against someone like Max as team leader.
This is bizarre.

If LH continues to be beaten by GR on merit then GR is the faster driver and Hamilton will need to accept that and adapt as necessary. Artificially creating things so that Lewis can win is.....nuts?

A number 1 and number 2 system clearly has benefits, but which driver assumes which role is defined by pace and ability, not by history.....
It also only usually works if you're fighting for championships, not individual results.
I agree with you - F1 is a meritocracy and GR, I think, is the faster driver at the moment. I have no issue with that, I’m going by what has gone before when it comes to the greats. They tend not to hang around to be beaten by the next best thing and with LH’s contract coming to an end at the end of 23, would he sign up for more of the same for a further 2 years assuming he’s offered a new contract? Personally I’d rather he bailed from the team rather than get beaten, because it will affect his legacy.

Senna wasn’t having it with the Hakk, Prost wasn’t having it with Senna nor Hill. Jaques wasn’t having it with Button, Alonso wasn’t having it with LH or Ocon and MS wasn’t having it with a whole host of drivers during his first stint. Even Piquet had to wake up from his slumber when paired with MS and didn’t hang around soon after. The greats of yesteryear tended to leave the sport on a high - their egos wouldn’t allow anything else

The drivers that have left the sport having been comprehensively beaten by team mates, like Kimi, Vettel, Jaques, history is not as kind to them when compared to drivers like Hill, Mansell, Hakk etc - drivers that would rather bail out of the sport than be beaten.

This could all be premature and LH will get to grips with GR, but from what I can see GR is focused on LH, beating him - Beating Max is secondary, and LH is already getting his excuses in.

HustleRussell

Original Poster:

24,602 posts

159 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
quotequote all
maz8062 said:
Alonso wasn’t having it with LH or Ocon
Let's not re-write history. Ocon held up pretty well but Alonso was better throughout, and that was definitely not the reason Alonso left.

witko999

629 posts

207 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
quotequote all
Personally I think Hamilton will beat Russell this year, and that last year Russell was a bit fortunate early in the season with safety cars etc. Don't get me wrong, I think he did a good job, but Hamilton comprehensively beat him after the summer break.

I think Russell is a fast qualifier, but tends not to make a huge impact in the race whilst Hamilton almost always goes forward.

MustangGT

11,553 posts

279 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
quotequote all
witko999 said:
Personally I think Hamilton will beat Russell this year, and that last year Russell was a bit fortunate early in the season with safety cars etc. Don't get me wrong, I think he did a good job, but Hamilton comprehensively beat him after the summer break.

I think Russell is a fast qualifier, but tends not to make a huge impact in the race whilst Hamilton almost always goes forward.
Indeed, in races 1 & 2, LH has gained 2 places in each, compared to GR losing 1 in each.

TheDeuce

21,271 posts

65 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
quotequote all
witko999 said:
Personally I think Hamilton will beat Russell this year, and that last year Russell was a bit fortunate early in the season with safety cars etc. Don't get me wrong, I think he did a good job, but Hamilton comprehensively beat him after the summer break.

I think Russell is a fast qualifier, but tends not to make a huge impact in the race whilst Hamilton almost always goes forward.
I think the same. Or at least, it's what I would bet on if I had too. Lewis's racecraft is indeed very hard to equal - and his consistent cool headed nature, which in fairness George has to an above average level too, but yet to be seen if he can take some truly unfair treatment and then knuckle down and get on with the job with quite the same level of composure that Lewis does.

We'll see which way this is trending by mid season of course. But for right now, Lewis is probably in a better place than George given that Lewis took a podium finish and George had his race ruined and then ended with a DNF. The points difference alone is going to put some pressure on, Lewis is over double George's points. It's early days and that is easily recoverable of course, but psychologically it won't feel that way from George's perspective.

Muzzer79

9,806 posts

186 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
quotequote all
MustangGT said:
witko999 said:
Personally I think Hamilton will beat Russell this year, and that last year Russell was a bit fortunate early in the season with safety cars etc. Don't get me wrong, I think he did a good job, but Hamilton comprehensively beat him after the summer break.

I think Russell is a fast qualifier, but tends not to make a huge impact in the race whilst Hamilton almost always goes forward.
Indeed, in races 1 & 2, LH has gained 2 places in each, compared to GR losing 1 in each.
To be fair to George, he was very unlucky in Oz and did flippin’ well to get into the lead.

maz8062

2,173 posts

214 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
quotequote all
witko999 said:
Personally I think Hamilton will beat Russell this year, and that last year Russell was a bit fortunate early in the season with safety cars etc. Don't get me wrong, I think he did a good job, but Hamilton comprehensively beat him after the summer break.

I think Russell is a fast qualifier, but tends not to make a huge impact in the race whilst Hamilton almost always goes forward.
I see it slightly differently in the context of inter-team rivalry at a team like Merc. Track position is key, with the car ahead getting the favourable calls and the “hold position” calls are never far off during the races. GR is good at qualifying in 23 - better than LH so far, marginally though, but it gives him track position.

I’ve also noted that GR is vocal, using phrases like “my team mate” when referring to LH, or “has he got a problem” - which in my view shows that there’s no hierarchy or respect within the team. It’s out and out racing and that’s how some like it.

In the context of LH signing a 2 year contract extension to be paired with GR, I’m not sure that would be the right move for the twilight years of LH’s career. F1 drivers, the greats of this sport, should always retire on top. They have the money, the trophies and the hall of fame badge, best to call it quits at the top or the sport will only remember you by your last race/s - ask JV, SV, JB, KR and to a lesser extent, MS. NR knew that and made the right call when the time came.

TheDeuce

21,271 posts

65 months

Monday 3rd April 2023
quotequote all
maz8062 said:
witko999 said:
Personally I think Hamilton will beat Russell this year, and that last year Russell was a bit fortunate early in the season with safety cars etc. Don't get me wrong, I think he did a good job, but Hamilton comprehensively beat him after the summer break.

I think Russell is a fast qualifier, but tends not to make a huge impact in the race whilst Hamilton almost always goes forward.
I see it slightly differently in the context of inter-team rivalry at a team like Merc. Track position is key, with the car ahead getting the favourable calls and the “hold position” calls are never far off during the races. GR is good at qualifying in 23 - better than LH so far, marginally though, but it gives him track position.

I’ve also noted that GR is vocal, using phrases like “my team mate” when referring to LH, or “has he got a problem” - which in my view shows that there’s no hierarchy or respect within the team. It’s out and out racing and that’s how some like it.

In the context of LH signing a 2 year contract extension to be paired with GR, I’m not sure that would be the right move for the twilight years of LH’s career. F1 drivers, the greats of this sport, should always retire on top. They have the money, the trophies and the hall of fame badge, best to call it quits at the top or the sport will only remember you by your last race/s - ask JV, SV, JB, KR and to a lesser extent, MS. NR knew that and made the right call when the time came.
Starting ahead is a huge advantage of course, but Merc wouldn't be guilty of putting one driver ahead of the other (in terms of team politics) if they, for example, had GR up front complaining about his tyres and Lewis behind, who might have managed his tyres better - and then asking GR to let Lewis pass. It's possible for the car behind on track to be identified as the faster car that day, and it's not favouritism or picking a number one to put that car ahead, it's just common sense.

The point I'm making is that GR is going to have to rise to Lewis's level of race craft even it does turn out that GR more often qualifies ahead.

Mercedes don't have a number one driver, at least not until they're obviously in the hunt for a title - which is fair enough. But logically, whoever they calculate has the best chance of scoring the highest result at any GP, should for that GP be prioritised.

sparta6

3,689 posts

99 months

Tuesday 4th April 2023
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Starting ahead is a huge advantage of course, but Merc wouldn't be guilty of putting one driver ahead of the other (in terms of team politics) if they, for example, had GR up front complaining about his tyres and Lewis behind, who might have managed his tyres better - and then asking GR to let Lewis pass. It's possible for the car behind on track to be identified as the faster car that day, and it's not favouritism or picking a number one to put that car ahead, it's just common sense.

The point I'm making is that GR is going to have to rise to Lewis's level of race craft even it does turn out that GR more often qualifies ahead.

Mercedes don't have a number one driver, at least not until they're obviously in the hunt for a title - which is fair enough. But logically, whoever they calculate has the best chance of scoring the highest result at any GP, should for that GP be prioritised.
Hopefully Mercedes won't do a repeat of this

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formu...