Prost and Ferrari
Discussion
blackmme said:
Prost at Williams was something of a marriage of convenience but Renault certainly seemed to support it, perhaps as a way of completing unfinished business from 1983.
I'm not sure how Williams and Renault could favour Senna over Prost in 1993 when Senna was driving for McLaren-Ford.
Prost had 3 titles when he took his sabbatical in 1992, his 4th came with Williams in 1993.
What many people forget is that Prost came within a smidgen of at least two and possibly three more titles. He could very easily have surpassed Fangio by 1993.I'm not sure how Williams and Renault could favour Senna over Prost in 1993 when Senna was driving for McLaren-Ford.
Prost had 3 titles when he took his sabbatical in 1992, his 4th came with Williams in 1993.
Having heard it directly from a close friend of Senna there was no way they were going to be in the same team again. If Prost stayed Senna wasn't going there, if Senna went, Prost left. Frank thought he could manage it and he genuinely thought during the summer of 1993 that he could convince both. It took him a month or so to understand it wasn't going to happen and by that point he was quite far down the line with Senna and Julian Jakobi.
Exactly, it was never going to work, but Senna was probably arrogant enough to think he would beat Alain anyway hence started the process.
The sad thing is, the forgotten man in all this is Damon, who did all the damn work anyway, and Mark Blundell before that. They get forgotten here as they basically did all the work to make this car and the 92 car as good as it was, as Mansell was hopeless at testing preferring to play golf!
And Alain always talks about the last race of 93 when all the hate went away, imagine if Alain was staying, it certainly would not have been the same!
They were both difficult men in their own ways, but for Frank to even think it was possible to have them in a team again was silly, he was playing on the best car thing, and even Ayrton could probably see that in 93 Benetton were getting close as was he in a car with an inferior engine, so Frank was playing the advantages based on 92 and early 93.
The sad thing is, the forgotten man in all this is Damon, who did all the damn work anyway, and Mark Blundell before that. They get forgotten here as they basically did all the work to make this car and the 92 car as good as it was, as Mansell was hopeless at testing preferring to play golf!
And Alain always talks about the last race of 93 when all the hate went away, imagine if Alain was staying, it certainly would not have been the same!
They were both difficult men in their own ways, but for Frank to even think it was possible to have them in a team again was silly, he was playing on the best car thing, and even Ayrton could probably see that in 93 Benetton were getting close as was he in a car with an inferior engine, so Frank was playing the advantages based on 92 and early 93.
LukeBrown66 said:
Exactly, it was never going to work, but Senna was probably arrogant enough to think he would beat Alain anyway hence started the process.
The sad thing is, the forgotten man in all this is Damon, who did all the damn work anyway, and Mark Blundell before that. They get forgotten here as they basically did all the work to make this car and the 92 car as good as it was, as Mansell was hopeless at testing preferring to play golf!
And Alain always talks about the last race of 93 when all the hate went away, imagine if Alain was staying, it certainly would not have been the same!
They were both difficult men in their own ways, but for Frank to even think it was possible to have them in a team again was silly, he was playing on the best car thing, and even Ayrton could probably see that in 93 Benetton were getting close as was he in a car with an inferior engine, so Frank was playing the advantages based on 92 and early 93.
Senna was a master of gamesmanship and achieving what he wanted with not so subtle leverage, exactly how he played Ron race by race in 1993.The sad thing is, the forgotten man in all this is Damon, who did all the damn work anyway, and Mark Blundell before that. They get forgotten here as they basically did all the work to make this car and the 92 car as good as it was, as Mansell was hopeless at testing preferring to play golf!
And Alain always talks about the last race of 93 when all the hate went away, imagine if Alain was staying, it certainly would not have been the same!
They were both difficult men in their own ways, but for Frank to even think it was possible to have them in a team again was silly, he was playing on the best car thing, and even Ayrton could probably see that in 93 Benetton were getting close as was he in a car with an inferior engine, so Frank was playing the advantages based on 92 and early 93.
He initiated the contact with Frank knowing full well he would get exactly what he wanted and that Prost would go. It actually started the year before when he offered to drive for free.
He knew what the chess moves were well ahead of time.
LukeBrown66 said:
Indeed he did, not clever enough to stop Prost getting his name on a contract though was he lol!
The Prost deal was on the cards much earlier, I think soon after Ferrari, certainly planned by the start of the 1992 season. Senna started talking about driving for free when it became evident what a rocketship the Williams was in 92, Prost was already in there by that point.LukeBrown66 said:
Indeed he did, not clever enough to stop Prost getting his name on a contract though was he lol!
Senna could have joined Williams for the 1991 season if he really wanted to but was loyal to Honda. He was talking to Frank in 1990 when really he was negotiating a better deal with McLaren. Frank knew he wasn't going to leave so instead tried to go for Alesi who ended up at Ferrari, Frank then had to settle with going back with Mansell.What is striking about the 1990 season was that the Williams FW13B was underachieving despite sporadic wins with number 2 calibre drivers of Patrese and Boutsen. A top class driver would have probably made a fist of challenging for the WDC. When Mansell tested the car with Boutsen's settings it was too stiff at the front. When he went out again with the car softened he was something like a second quicker!
cgt2 said:
Senna was a master of gamesmanship and achieving what he wanted with not so subtle leverage, exactly how he played Ron race by race in 1993.
He initiated the contact with Frank knowing full well he would get exactly what he wanted and that Prost would go. It actually started the year before when he offered to drive for free.
He knew what the chess moves were well ahead of time.
Not sure I ever thought of it like that now that you've mentioned it. He initiated the contact with Frank knowing full well he would get exactly what he wanted and that Prost would go. It actually started the year before when he offered to drive for free.
He knew what the chess moves were well ahead of time.
I remember a post-race press conference when Senna described Prost as a track runner who wanted his rivals to wear lead shoes and then Mansell put his arm around him!
IIRC this was before his 'I'll drive for free' comment and by then desperate to leave McLaren.
I can see he was sending a message that only was on the market but with came with no strings attached.
entropy said:
Not sure I ever thought of it like that now that you've mentioned it.
I remember a post-race press conference when Senna described Prost as a track runner who wanted his rivals to wear lead shoes and then Mansell put his arm around him!
IIRC this was before his 'I'll drive for free' comment and by then desperate to leave McLaren.
I can see he was sending a message that only was on the market but with came with no strings attached.
It was after.I remember a post-race press conference when Senna described Prost as a track runner who wanted his rivals to wear lead shoes and then Mansell put his arm around him!
IIRC this was before his 'I'll drive for free' comment and by then desperate to leave McLaren.
I can see he was sending a message that only was on the market but with came with no strings attached.
Senna had made his “drive for free” comments during the Hungarian Grand Prix weekend. Prost’s signing was announced three races later in Portugal (despite having signed to drive for William just before the Mexican Grand Prix which was round 2).
Frank Williams tried to use Senna’s offer of driving for free to try and get Mansell to lower his wage demands for 1993 (knowing full well about Prost’s veto on Senna). Then we had Mansell’s retirement press conference at Monza including the 11th hour “everything is agreed” comment from a Williams team member to Mansell just before he spoke, which was followed by Portugal where The “lead shoes” comments and Mansell putting his arm around Senna were in the post race interview room.
Muzzer79 said:
Something I found out only recently was that Alesi was being advised by Nelson Piquet
Jean told Nelson about the Williams offer, to which Piquet advised him that it wasn't enough and he should take the money at Ferrari. Or words to that effect.
Piquet also told Alesi that owning an F40 should be stipulated in his contract!Jean told Nelson about the Williams offer, to which Piquet advised him that it wasn't enough and he should take the money at Ferrari. Or words to that effect.
entropy said:
LukeBrown66 said:
Indeed he did, not clever enough to stop Prost getting his name on a contract though was he lol!
Senna could have joined Williams for the 1991 season if he really wanted to but was loyal to Honda. He was talking to Frank in 1990 when really he was negotiating a better deal with McLaren. Frank knew he wasn't going to leave so instead tried to go for Alesi who ended up at Ferrari, Frank then had to settle with going back with Mansell.What is striking about the 1990 season was that the Williams FW13B was underachieving despite sporadic wins with number 2 calibre drivers of Patrese and Boutsen. A top class driver would have probably made a fist of challenging for the WDC. When Mansell tested the car with Boutsen's settings it was too stiff at the front. When he went out again with the car softened he was something like a second quicker!
cgt2 said:
Senna was a master of gamesmanship and achieving what he wanted with not so subtle leverage, exactly how he played Ron race by race in 1993.
He initiated the contact with Frank knowing full well he would get exactly what he wanted and that Prost would go. It actually started the year before when he offered to drive for free.
He knew what the chess moves were well ahead of time.
Not sure I ever thought of it like that now that you've mentioned it. He initiated the contact with Frank knowing full well he would get exactly what he wanted and that Prost would go. It actually started the year before when he offered to drive for free.
He knew what the chess moves were well ahead of time.
I remember a post-race press conference when Senna described Prost as a track runner who wanted his rivals to wear lead shoes and then Mansell put his arm around him!
IIRC this was before his 'I'll drive for free' comment and by then desperate to leave McLaren.
I can see he was sending a message that only was on the market but with came with no strings attached.
I would not say Mansell was THAT much faster than either, but he was faster.
I have read a fair about that era and basically Nigel was able to get the most out of the tricks they built into the car, Patrese was fine in 91, often quicker in fact, but not as good on the race and not as ruthless, but also a bit unlucky as No2 drivers always seem to be.
But in 92 he could not get on with the car, Nigel was able to sort of detach the brain and find the way to drive the active car, which was somewhat different to 91. Prost found this also difficult in 1993, but interestingly found the 92 car great when he tried it before the new car came out.
I have read a fair about that era and basically Nigel was able to get the most out of the tricks they built into the car, Patrese was fine in 91, often quicker in fact, but not as good on the race and not as ruthless, but also a bit unlucky as No2 drivers always seem to be.
But in 92 he could not get on with the car, Nigel was able to sort of detach the brain and find the way to drive the active car, which was somewhat different to 91. Prost found this also difficult in 1993, but interestingly found the 92 car great when he tried it before the new car came out.
Muzzer79 said:
Something I found out only recently was that Alesi was being advised by Nelson Piquet
Jean told Nelson about the Williams offer, to which Piquet advised him that it wasn't enough and he should take the money at Ferrari. Or words to that effect.
Never knew that, where is that from?Jean told Nelson about the Williams offer, to which Piquet advised him that it wasn't enough and he should take the money at Ferrari. Or words to that effect.
I'd heard Jean say in interviews that the emotional lure of Ferrari was too great with his Italian heritage.
Piquet was mentoring Moreno too at the time. Not very well
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