Red Bull DRS?

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Discussion

gt_12345

1,873 posts

34 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2023
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StevieBee said:
I know you said this as a joke but I do find it remarkable that Red Bull who have the least amount of money to spend on development and the least amount of wind tunnel time, etc, have managed to make a car that is so substantially quicker in a formula whose rules were changed to tighten the field up - which it has successfully done, with the exception of Red Bull.

History dictates that cars with such advantage have often been found to be imaginative with interpretation of the technical regs.
But this year's car was designed/built before they were issued with the fine? It was started 12 months ago.

gt_12345

1,873 posts

34 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2023
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vaud said:
PhilAsia said:
I find it strange that Dermot slates PaulG, then goes on to slate Merc, then awkwardly sidesteps a genuine question concerning an apparent DRS advantage in qualifying - which seems to favour Red Bull.

I agree, it does seem to favour RB. But them's the rules everyone is playing by and is Newey's playground.
Newey is still there but by no means full time. He has by some accounts mentored the next gen of Neweys, which might be even more scary for the competition.
Went to Aston didn't he? laugh

mat205125

17,790 posts

212 months

Wednesday 22nd March 2023
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Byker28i said:
Red Bull always had a very good aero package, remember their top speed running lower downforce at circuits. It was their lower powered engine that let them down, along with Merc Party mode etc. That Honda engine looks a good power unit now, along with the rule change to favour high rake cars a couple of years back.

It's just all come together, just as it did for Merc. It's down to the others to play catch up - provided RB aren't cheating, having big lunches biggrin
It's how it's always been, doesn't need to change
Exactly.

Due to their power deficit to Mercedes with their Renault and Honda engines, Red Bull have been used to trimming their cars like a dart for years, whilst Mercedes have been able to have barn door wings in comparison, whilst staying way ahead of everyone.

As the Red Bull engines began to get closer to a similar level in 2020 and 2021, this enabled them to fight for titles, rather than simply occasional podiums when circumstances allowed.

With the Honda and Mercedes engines finally comparable on performance, Mercedes are struggling more than Red Bull.

Mercedes were the fastest in the speed traps in the Bahrain race, but at what cost to downforce, corner speed, or acceleration earlier in the main straight.

Some Gump

12,671 posts

185 months

Thursday 23rd March 2023
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Where dies this 20kmh stst come from?

Quali

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.fia.com/s...

Is 20kph the difference between drs and not? Seems to me that with drs the spread is far smaller than 20kmh, and we always get at least 10 spread anyway just due to different aero ler team...

honda_exige

5,980 posts

205 months

Thursday 23rd March 2023
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It's not so much just that the RBs are so fast but more that the Mercs are so dog slow.

Max's DRS assisted top speed was only 1kph faster than Hulkenbergs.

The Mercs right down the bottom.

I don't think there is anything massively trick going on with the RBs.


Pflanzgarten

3,807 posts

24 months

Thursday 23rd March 2023
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Just looking at max speeds is erroneous though, it's how quickly you get there that counts.

Daston

6,074 posts

202 months

Thursday 23rd March 2023
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Plus according to that Perez and Hamilton both had the same top speed

Some Gump

12,671 posts

185 months

Thursday 23rd March 2023
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honda_exige said:
It's not so much just that the RBs are so fast but more that the Mercs are so dog slow.

Max's DRS assisted top speed was only 1kph faster than Hulkenbergs.

The Mercs right down the bottom.

I don't think there is anything massively trick going on with the RBs.

Thats "bad science".
Max overtook the most - he will have the most DRS laps.
Bottom end overtook never. They'd have 1 or 2 DRS laps.
To then average out top 15?
Max: the 15 best of maybe 30 laps he had DRS.
Last few: the top 15 laps out of which they maybe had DRS twice.

Remember, the act of overtaking, or being overtaken compromises lap time, and trap speed. Without access to stats, i'd guess the best speeds are the lap before the overtake, not the lap after.

Tl;dr? Imo that chart at least in part describes DRS vs non DRS, and even when drs vs drs, not all are created equal.

C.A.R.

3,967 posts

187 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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Great article from AMuS here and some analysis of Saudi Arabia GP - Link

Basically back to pre-'22 difficulties of following in dirty air. It's not that anyone had a particular advantage in DRS zones, but that nobody could get within the 1s window for DRS, with the majority of the grid following in procession at 2s+ intervals. Coupled with the topography of the circuit and the dirty air being channeled by the barriers, it's why we saw less than half the overtakes (77 Vs 34) compared with last year.

No close following = no spectacle, no racing.

What can be done? Should something be done? Clearly AM and RBR have slippery designs which exploit loopholes but the designs are causing so much outwash that it's jeopardising the popularity of the sport. Saudi was a bloody snooze fest and this news doesn't make encouraging reading for the rest of the season unless FOM / FIA intervene ASAP.

honda_exige

5,980 posts

205 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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Some Gump said:
honda_exige said:
It's not so much just that the RBs are so fast but more that the Mercs are so dog slow.

Max's DRS assisted top speed was only 1kph faster than Hulkenbergs.

The Mercs right down the bottom.

I don't think there is anything massively trick going on with the RBs.

Thats "bad science".
Max overtook the most - he will have the most DRS laps.
Bottom end overtook never. They'd have 1 or 2 DRS laps.
To then average out top 15?
Max: the 15 best of maybe 30 laps he had DRS.
Last few: the top 15 laps out of which they maybe had DRS twice.

Remember, the act of overtaking, or being overtaken compromises lap time, and trap speed. Without access to stats, i'd guess the best speeds are the lap before the overtake, not the lap after.

Tl;dr? Imo that chart at least in part describes DRS vs non DRS, and even when drs vs drs, not all are created equal.
I'm not sure you're meant to analyse it that in depth - I'm just taking peak speed as an example - it's pretty clear which are DRS and which are non DRS.

It's fairly safe to say that the rough DRS assisted speed of the RB is 335 - 340kph

It's fairly safe to say that the rough non DRS speed of the Merc is around 315kph (George never had DRS on the main straight), so when Lewis said he's never had a car come past him that fast, people seem be jumping to the conclusion that the RB must be doing something trick when looking above a DRS speed of 343kph is good but not a massive outlier with Hulk at 342 and Piastri at 338.

The take away is that Merc's DRS speed is just as much as an outlier on the slow side as the RB's is on the fast, that car be draggy.

nordboy

1,439 posts

49 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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StevieBee said:
What separates F1 from other formulae is that it is - or should be - a meritocracy. It is first and foremost a competition of engineering ingenuity which whilst it can be entertaining, should never be entertainment for the sake of it. I think the success linked budget and testing cap falls just the right side of this because it theoretically evens the technical playing field. When you start to influence the on-track sporting dynamic through success penalties, that starts us down a rabbit hole to an altogether different thing for which there are existing examples already, some of which you've already mentioned.
Yet DRS is acceptable? doesn't that concept in itself influence the races? Isn't it a sort of penalty, only those who are within 1 sec of the car in front can use 'extra' boost?

Jon_Bmw

619 posts

201 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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George definitely had DRS on the main straight at least once. When Max passed him (rather surprisingly) before the last corner, George then got DRS on the main straight. Whether his line on the last corner was compromised which affected his exit speed I am unsure.

With DRS open it looked like he couldn't close the gap.

HealeyV8

419 posts

77 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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DRS should only be used to overtake lapped cars now the regs mean cars can follow closely. smile

mat205125

17,790 posts

212 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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Some Gump said:
honda_exige said:
It's not so much just that the RBs are so fast but more that the Mercs are so dog slow.

Max's DRS assisted top speed was only 1kph faster than Hulkenbergs.

The Mercs right down the bottom.

I don't think there is anything massively trick going on with the RBs.

Thats "bad science".
Max overtook the most - he will have the most DRS laps.
Bottom end overtook never. They'd have 1 or 2 DRS laps.
To then average out top 15?
Max: the 15 best of maybe 30 laps he had DRS.
Last few: the top 15 laps out of which they maybe had DRS twice.

Remember, the act of overtaking, or being overtaken compromises lap time, and trap speed. Without access to stats, i'd guess the best speeds are the lap before the overtake, not the lap after.

Imo that chart at least in part describes DRS vs non DRS, and even when drs vs drs, not all are created equal.
That's what makes the Verstappen and Perez comparison so interesting, as Checo obviously had less DRS opportunities due to leading from the front, which therefore gives an idea of the power of the RBR DRS ....... no different to any other team in that respect.

The laps which the peak speeds occurred on is also important, as to what the fuel loads were, which tyres, how old the tyres were, and whether the drivers were conserving fuel or harvesting to charge the battery too.

That doesn't equate to "bad science", rather it gives the reader the responsibility to interpret and apply thought to the data they are being presented with.

What The Deuces

2,780 posts

23 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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Justdeserves said:
Clip from elsewhere

It's a bit backwards from regular cars. As you say, opening the wastegate reduces pressure in the turbo and thus the turbo speed. Normally, this reduces engine power.

However, F1 cars have an MGU-H, which is basically a motor/generator connected to the turbo shaft. When the wastegates open, the MGU-H can be used to keep the turbo spinning and so keep the engine well supplied with intake air. Simultaneously, opening the wastegate reduces the back pressure in the exhaust system (since the exhaust gases don't have to spin the turbo).

Add these together, and you have the same intake air conditions and better exhaust conditions, so the power output of the combustion engine increases. The trade-off is that using the MGU-H to spin the turbo quickly drains the battery, so this is just used as a "boost mode" for overtakes or on corner exits.
Sounds like bks, regardless of the questionable theory of releasing boost to the atmosphere to allow the MGU_H to spin the turbo and produce.....er more boost...

Where do they magic the extra fuel flow required from?

LHRFlightman

Original Poster:

1,930 posts

169 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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Gary Anderson has some thoughts on this his latest thoughts on The Race.

"The straightline speed of the Red Bull RB19, particularly with the DRS open, was a big talking point at Formula 1’s Saudi Arabian Grand Prix. As Lewis Hamilton put it, “I don’t know why or how, but he came past me with serious speed”.

The DRS, which I’m no fan of because I want to see racing being racing, often makes it impossible to defend so it’s no surprise Hamilton was amazed when Max Verstappen breezed past him carrying a speed advantage of 33-34km/h on the run to Turn 1 during the race. That’s led some to question whether Red Bull might be doing something sneaky to achieve this, but it’s all just part and parcel of having a very efficient car."


33-34kmh!

mat205125

17,790 posts

212 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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LHRFlightman said:
33-34kmh!
Not backed up in the tabulated data above.

Whilst DRS is strong, and often difficult to defend, it rarely impossible; We yet seen a circumstance like occasionally occurs in motorcycle racing, where the leaders actively try to be in second place on the start of the last lap, as that's where you need to be to win (aside from when the detection line is poorly placed)



MustangGT

11,555 posts

279 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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mat205125 said:
Not backed up in the tabulated data above.

Whilst DRS is strong, and often difficult to defend, it rarely impossible; We yet seen a circumstance like occasionally occurs in motorcycle racing, where the leaders actively try to be in second place on the start of the last lap, as that's where you need to be to win (aside from when the detection line is poorly placed)
The table does not do anything than list the highest speed achieved on a lap, not where on the circuit. This means the 33-34 kph is absolutely possible.

StevieBee

12,795 posts

254 months

Friday 24th March 2023
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nordboy said:
StevieBee said:
What separates F1 from other formulae is that it is - or should be - a meritocracy. It is first and foremost a competition of engineering ingenuity which whilst it can be entertaining, should never be entertainment for the sake of it. I think the success linked budget and testing cap falls just the right side of this because it theoretically evens the technical playing field. When you start to influence the on-track sporting dynamic through success penalties, that starts us down a rabbit hole to an altogether different thing for which there are existing examples already, some of which you've already mentioned.
Yet DRS is acceptable? doesn't that concept in itself influence the races? Isn't it a sort of penalty, only those who are within 1 sec of the car in front can use 'extra' boost?
The argument for DRS is that all the cars have it and all use it in the same way. Its intent was to prevent clearly quicker cars and drivers getting stuck behind slower cars and drivers for no reason other than aerodynamics. By the time a car is in a position to use it, the point has already been proven so the sporting dynamics have not been altered.

That's the theory, at least.

mat205125

17,790 posts

212 months

Friday 24th March 2023
quotequote all
MustangGT said:
mat205125 said:
Not backed up in the tabulated data above.

Whilst DRS is strong, and often difficult to defend, it rarely impossible; We yet seen a circumstance like occasionally occurs in motorcycle racing, where the leaders actively try to be in second place on the start of the last lap, as that's where you need to be to win (aside from when the detection line is poorly placed)
The table does not do anything than list the highest speed achieved on a lap, not where on the circuit. This means the 33-34 kph is absolutely possible.
True!

If you measure the Red Bull top speed at a different point on the track, to the other cars, then it's very possible that they could be 33-34kph faster, at a point on the track.