Are Red bull cheating?
Discussion
honda_exige said:
FIA just stated that the design of the RB bib adjustment has been public to the teams and themselves for the last 3yrs.
Yeah and Zak has just said the FIA need to review the CCTV....... I suspect someone from Red Bull who now works at McLaren have been singing rather loudly......honda_exige said:
TheDeuce said:
honda_exige said:
As a strategy by Zak it's been pretty effective at deflecting from the fact that McLaren have been asked to modify all of their wings to eliminate the mini-DRS effect, not just the Baku one. This weekends rear wing has been modified.
FIA just stated that the design of the RB bib adjustment has been public to the teams and themselves for the last 3yrs.
Jesus, you dig deep!FIA just stated that the design of the RB bib adjustment has been public to the teams and themselves for the last 3yrs.
It's very unlikely it was obvious that the connection between the FIA sealed point and the lower detachable adjustment point was obvious - McLaren dug deep to figure it out, they asked the right questions and upon inspection the truth became clear.
You need to find a new god!
Article from Mark Hughes
The question raised by McLaren’s Zak Brown was what would there be to stop the mechanic with his head in the cockpit ‘making adjustments to the seat belts’ in front of the FIA observer to actually be changing the floor height? Well, the answer to that seems obvious. The FIA observer would surely be questioning why the other guy was standing there with his adjusting tool!
But that is it! That’s literally all there was behind wild stories of ‘Red Bull caught cheating’.
This has all the hallmarks of title-contest psychology, tit-for-tat after Red Bull pressed for changes to McLaren’s ‘Mini DRS’ wing after Baku.
The frustrating thing about such controversies is that they are meaningless from a sporting perspective, but form part of the theatre of the show. It will now be accepted as historical fact that Red Bull was caught cheating on the parc ferme regulations. It absolutely – categorically – was not. But don’t let the truth stand in the way of a good story.
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/single...
I of course await being told Hughes is on the RB payroll etc
honda_exige said:
It's somewhat hilarious that you get so wound up by a different take that you resort to insults - or have you started the red wine early this eve? 
I'm an engineer that can see exactly what they did and why they would do that.No red wine... But I could be two bottles deep and still attach more knowledge to reality than you appear to be able to do
I'm not insulting you, I was trying to help!
TheDeuce said:
honda_exige said:
It's somewhat hilarious that you get so wound up by a different take that you resort to insults - or have you started the red wine early this eve?
I'm an engineer that can see exactly what they did and why they would do that.No red wine... But I could be two bottles deep and still attach more knowledge to reality than you appear to be able to do
I'm not insulting you, I was trying to help!
honda_exige said:
You've seen no more than the rest of us, so beyond knowing 'rotating thing adjusts bib, this time from above rather than from below' I don't think you have any more insight than an actual F1 journo on site talking to other teams. It's not exactly a difficult concept to understand. You're a biased couch expert, just like the rest of us.
I'd make the adjuster use the same fastener head size as the comfort item adjuster so you use the same tool.It's not rocket science.
honda_exige said:
TheDeuce said:
honda_exige said:
It's somewhat hilarious that you get so wound up by a different take that you resort to insults - or have you started the red wine early this eve?
I'm an engineer that can see exactly what they did and why they would do that.No red wine... But I could be two bottles deep and still attach more knowledge to reality than you appear to be able to do
I'm not insulting you, I was trying to help!
I've seen more than enough. It's obvious that there was an upper 'official' point of adjustment that engaged with what would later become the cheeky point of adjustment below.
This ain't complicated stuff, it was invisible because it's so simple and wouldn't have been very obvious in the shared drawings.
Hats off to RBR in terms of ingenuity - but as ever, zero respect for sporting integrity.
Dashnine said:
The bib isn’t the same material as the plank, and is not the front of the plank. The bib is therefore higher than the top of the plank, I.e. above Z=0 and is adjustable by all teams.
RB choose to put the adjustment mechanism inside the footwell, whether it was ever adjusted between sessions in parc ferme we’ll never know unless the ‘bibgrass’ now at another team admits it.
This is just wrong, the plank runs all the way to the front of the bib. EgRB choose to put the adjustment mechanism inside the footwell, whether it was ever adjusted between sessions in parc ferme we’ll never know unless the ‘bibgrass’ now at another team admits it.
I did not argue (because I know what the plank is and what the bib is) that the bib is the plank or made of the same stuff as it.
The bottom of the bib is not allowed to be higher than the top of the plank as you say it is, because there is a rule that says there can be no gap between them.
But the photo above makes my point very clear. The top of the plank has to be at z=0. Z=0 is the lowest point of the floor of the car. Therefore if the plank is not parallel to the reference plane the car is illegal because the top of the plank will be above z=0.
Edited by PlywoodPascal on Saturday 19th October 20:26
Edited by PlywoodPascal on Saturday 19th October 20:29
732NM said:
honda_exige said:
You've seen no more than the rest of us, so beyond knowing 'rotating thing adjusts bib, this time from above rather than from below' I don't think you have any more insight than an actual F1 journo on site talking to other teams. It's not exactly a difficult concept to understand. You're a biased couch expert, just like the rest of us.
I'd make the adjuster use the same fastener head size as the comfort item adjuster so you use the same tool.It's not rocket science.
What RBR have done was simple enough to not be picked up on for quite some time. It's simple to understand now it's been identified. It's cheating because it allowed them the ability to alter a crucial aspect of the car between competitive sessions, when no other team was able to do so.
HE wishes to defend that, fine. He loses because he can't possibly get any real satisfaction from the sport if he's disinterested in whether or not the rules are being adhered to.
TheDeuce said:
732NM said:
honda_exige said:
You've seen no more than the rest of us, so beyond knowing 'rotating thing adjusts bib, this time from above rather than from below' I don't think you have any more insight than an actual F1 journo on site talking to other teams. It's not exactly a difficult concept to understand. You're a biased couch expert, just like the rest of us.
I'd make the adjuster use the same fastener head size as the comfort item adjuster so you use the same tool.It's not rocket science.
What RBR have done was simple enough to not be picked up on for quite some time. It's simple to understand now it's been identified. It's cheating because it allowed them the ability to alter a crucial aspect of the car between competitive sessions, when no other team was able to do so.
HE wishes to defend that, fine. He loses because he can't possibly get any real satisfaction from the sport if he's disinterested in whether or not the rules are being adhered to.
I'll note that it seems to have had zero effect on RBs pace - so you have to ask is it worth the risk cheating over something so small and by definition having most of the mechanics be aware of what is going on - mechanics that freely chnage teams and can be easily coerced into making a sworn statement to the FIA after they've moved teams.
One wonders how you feel about McLaren suddenly going backwards having less pace than the Ferrari's the very weekend where they've had to change all their wings.
honda_exige said:
TheDeuce said:
732NM said:
honda_exige said:
You've seen no more than the rest of us, so beyond knowing 'rotating thing adjusts bib, this time from above rather than from below' I don't think you have any more insight than an actual F1 journo on site talking to other teams. It's not exactly a difficult concept to understand. You're a biased couch expert, just like the rest of us.
I'd make the adjuster use the same fastener head size as the comfort item adjuster so you use the same tool.It's not rocket science.
What RBR have done was simple enough to not be picked up on for quite some time. It's simple to understand now it's been identified. It's cheating because it allowed them the ability to alter a crucial aspect of the car between competitive sessions, when no other team was able to do so.
HE wishes to defend that, fine. He loses because he can't possibly get any real satisfaction from the sport if he's disinterested in whether or not the rules are being adhered to.
I'll note that it seems to have had zero effect on RBs pace - so you have to ask is it worth the risk cheating over something so small and by definition having lost of the mechanics be aware of what is going on - mechanics that freely chnage teams and can be easily coerced into making a sworn statement to the FIA after they've moved teams.
One wonders how you feel about McLaren suddenly going backwards having less pace than the Ferrari's the very weekend where they've had to change all their wings.
As details have emerged anyone useful with a spanner can imagine exactly what they were thinking, and they would only have done that if thinking= doing.
If you want evidence before considering risk, good luck crossing the road. Your opinions are your own, mine are often flexible but not when it's become so obvious what they were up to on this occasion!
Hustle_ said:
I guess it stands to reason that Red Bull / Verstappen fans don’t mind how he wins.
They seem to be taking their lead from Horner, just generating noise and misdirection to obfuscate the topic. Pretending they don’t understand the rules and / or the allegations.
Have so many instances of cheating by an individual team over a sustained period ever gone over with quite such a lack of consequence? The whole team stinks and most of us clocked it like five years ago.
The fandom are in too deep.
May I point you at Ferrari of old….They seem to be taking their lead from Horner, just generating noise and misdirection to obfuscate the topic. Pretending they don’t understand the rules and / or the allegations.
Have so many instances of cheating by an individual team over a sustained period ever gone over with quite such a lack of consequence? The whole team stinks and most of us clocked it like five years ago.
The fandom are in too deep.
TheDeuce said:
Zero evidence... Ok. They designed it that way because it made sense in some other way?
As details have emerged anyone useful with a spanner can imagine exactly what they were thinking, and they would only have done that if thinking= doing.
If you want evidence before considering risk, good luck crossing the road. Your opinions are your own, mine are often flexible but not when it's become so obvious what they were up to on this occasion!
For the sake of our justice system I hope you don't get called to Jury duty As details have emerged anyone useful with a spanner can imagine exactly what they were thinking, and they would only have done that if thinking= doing.
If you want evidence before considering risk, good luck crossing the road. Your opinions are your own, mine are often flexible but not when it's become so obvious what they were up to on this occasion!
simon_harris said:
Hustle_ said:
I guess it stands to reason that Red Bull / Verstappen fans don’t mind how he wins.
They seem to be taking their lead from Horner, just generating noise and misdirection to obfuscate the topic. Pretending they don’t understand the rules and / or the allegations.
Have so many instances of cheating by an individual team over a sustained period ever gone over with quite such a lack of consequence? The whole team stinks and most of us clocked it like five years ago.
The fandom are in too deep.
May I point you at Ferrari of old….They seem to be taking their lead from Horner, just generating noise and misdirection to obfuscate the topic. Pretending they don’t understand the rules and / or the allegations.
Have so many instances of cheating by an individual team over a sustained period ever gone over with quite such a lack of consequence? The whole team stinks and most of us clocked it like five years ago.
The fandom are in too deep.
Back then you knew certain teams were dirty but you couldn't piece it together, not could you discuss your suspicions with a wider audience of other keen eyed F1 geeks! It was pub chatter at best.
Things are less opaque these days, and RBR are being shown up to be pretty dirty. All of the various potential transgressions can be generously explained away with counter theories... But the fact it's always RBR, combined with the fact they've previously enjoyed a huge advantage over the rest of the field becomes a mountain of awkwardness to explain away.
The team obviously has it's die hard fans, but at the end of the day fandom shouldn't overrule sensible judgement. Have they been winning in merit, within the rules? I personally seriously doubt it.
Nothing's going to outwardly happen to any team who cheats. It would devalue the sport as a whole and the teams themselves. Nobody who owns F1 or a team will want to diminish their balance sheet value. That's why Mercedes dropped the '21 complaint.
It's why Ferrari got away with it and red bull will continue to do.
Either accept you're watching a manipulated entertainment show with limited sporting integrity or ditch it and do something else.
It's why Ferrari got away with it and red bull will continue to do.
Either accept you're watching a manipulated entertainment show with limited sporting integrity or ditch it and do something else.
Forester1965 said:
Either accept you're watching a manipulated entertainment show with limited sporting integrity or ditch it and do something else.
Why should we accept it? So that people that seemingly condone/laud cheating, like honda, can enjoy F1WWE? You are correct in that it is getting more accepted to have no sporting integrity, primarily led by a toxic taurine-fuelled drinks company that has no marque in the automobile industry to consider. But F1 will end up with a maga-type fanbase, with stupidity as its lowest common denominator. Will MB, McL, AM and, to a lesser extent, Ferrari, still be interested then?
TBF you make all the right arguments for not continuing to watch though, and the bias is getting more in favour of ditching the b
ks permanently!It makes the efforts of all the team members a trivial insignificance, not the pinnacle they aspire to.
I watched and interview with Horner, Brundle, Button and someone else.
Even by Horner’s slimey standards he was struggling to defend it, says everyone has got something similar, but don’t seem to have an answer for why the FIA only wanted to put an anti tamper seal on just the Red Bull.
Even by Horner’s slimey standards he was struggling to defend it, says everyone has got something similar, but don’t seem to have an answer for why the FIA only wanted to put an anti tamper seal on just the Red Bull.
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