Are Red bull cheating?

[chrisga]

When I saw the sky piece with Ted stood in front of the car and a mechanic with the long socket set I imagined the device was as simple as a sort of bolt through the floor pushing the front of the bib down.



Obviously I'm no F1 designer as that seems way too simple. When you look at the car the "bib" is a fair bit behind the front suspension:



Where the mechanic had the socket was almost inline with the top wishbones. The underneath of the car doesn't even look possibly adjustable until at least behind the lower wishbones.



Appreciate that that is the 23 car but pretty sure Horner said they'd had the same device for a number of years in one of the interviews I saw so does anyone know, is this adjuster a series of linkages to get from where the mechanics ratchet was back to move something over or near the start of the "bib"?

Or have i misunderstood and it drops the front suspension ride height?

[Dashnine]

The access panel they're using to get to the bib adjuster is the top of the footwell - typically used for adjusting pedals and other top secret componentry...

RB mentioned access was convoluted, removing panels, etc. a while ago - it's not as simple as a mechanic diving into the footwell head first with a spanner in his hand.

I would imagine people are currently pouring over recordings of the Red Bull garage between qualifying and the race trying to find the ratchet gun in use....

[paulguitar]

DOCG said:

Ferrari must be cheating as well now. There's no other way they could finish above a British driver unless cheating is involved!

The drivers’ nationalities have absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

[Jasandjules]

Teatowell said:

Jasandjules said:

And yet the FIA are not bothering to look at the CCTV... Why not?

Why would they, all sorts of things go on in parc ferme. You think they’re using cctv to pick up millimetres of floor movement?

No I KNOW that they are not, because the FIA have said they are not. My question is why not? Because surely if one team was cheating that would be a basis to review it and say conclusively they were (or not). Now, the fact that Mr Brown has a number of ex RB mechanics and is making a big fuss over this, what does that indicate?

Putting those two factors together, what is the only logical conclusion?

[FourWheelDrift]

chrisga said:

When I saw the sky piece with Ted stood in front of the car and a mechanic with the long socket set I imagined the device was as simple as a sort of bolt through the floor pushing the front of the bib down.



Obviously I'm no F1 designer as that seems way too simple. When you look at the car the "bib" is a fair bit behind the front suspension:

Toto makes a good point.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1058551/1/toto-wolff...

"Why would you design such a thing and put two marks on it for two positions? Is that the precise decision-making in F1?"
Red Bull demonstrated why the device complied with regulations to FIA officials in full view of television cameras in Texas.
Wolff mocked their efforts: "I really like that when they put this real broom in the car to demonstrate that that is the only way of that getting changed! I wonder how long it took them to make this up, and to stick it in there."

[WPA]

Jasandjules said:

Teatowell said:

Jasandjules said:

And yet the FIA are not bothering to look at the CCTV... Why not?

Why would they, all sorts of things go on in parc ferme. You think they’re using cctv to pick up millimetres of floor movement?

No I KNOW that they are not, because the FIA have said they are not. My question is why not? Because surely if one team was cheating that would be a basis to review it and say conclusively they were (or not). Now, the fact that Mr Brown has a number of ex RB mechanics and is making a big fuss over this, what does that indicate?

Putting those two factors together, what is the only logical conclusion?

From what I understand Toto and Mr Vesseur are not happy with the whole situation and by all accounts are going to be speaking to the FIA again as to them it makes not sense to run an adjustor like this.

I don't think the matter is fully closed as yet

[PhilAsia]

FourWheelDrift said:

chrisga said:

When I saw the sky piece with Ted stood in front of the car and a mechanic with the long socket set I imagined the device was as simple as a sort of bolt through the floor pushing the front of the bib down.



Obviously I'm no F1 designer as that seems way too simple. When you look at the car the "bib" is a fair bit behind the front suspension:

Toto makes a good point.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1058551/1/toto-wolff...

"Why would you design such a thing and put two marks on it for two positions? Is that the precise decision-making in F1?"
Red Bull demonstrated why the device complied with regulations to FIA officials in full view of television cameras in Texas.
Wolff mocked their efforts: "I really like that when they put this real broom in the car to demonstrate that that is the only way of that getting changed! I wonder how long it took them to make this up, and to stick it in there."

The only way RBR could be 100% cheating is if the two marks had "Q" for qualifying and "R" for race. Red Bull are obviously innocent, they even said so!!

[Megaflow]

chrisga said:

When I saw the sky piece with Ted stood in front of the car and a mechanic with the long socket set I imagined the device was as simple as a sort of bolt through the floor pushing the front of the bib down.



Obviously I'm no F1 designer as that seems way too simple. When you look at the car the "bib" is a fair bit behind the front suspension:



Where the mechanic had the socket was almost inline with the top wishbones. The underneath of the car doesn't even look possibly adjustable until at least behind the lower wishbones.



Appreciate that that is the 23 car but pretty sure Horner said they'd had the same device for a number of years in one of the interviews I saw so does anyone know, is this adjuster a series of linkages to get from where the mechanics ratchet was back to move something over or near the start of the "bib"?

Or have i misunderstood and it drops the front suspension ride height?

I am glad that wasn't just me... I thought the same thing.

[Teatowell]

Megaflow said:

I am glad that wasn't just me... I thought the same thing.

I mean it is? The RB mechanics were taking the piss with the tools being used.

[Megaflow]

Teatowell said:

Megaflow said:

I am glad that wasn't just me... I thought the same thing.

I mean it is? The RB mechanics were taking the piss with the tools being used.

The powered ratchet, absolutely. But I’d hope the FIA wouldn’t be as stupid as to fall for the above.

[TheDeuce]

Megaflow said:

Teatowell said:

Megaflow said:

I am glad that wasn't just me... I thought the same thing.

I mean it is? The RB mechanics were taking the piss with the tools being used.

The powered ratchet, absolutely. But I’d hope the FIA wouldn’t be as stupid as to fall for the above.

I think safe to say that the double extension powered driver setup was to ham up how obvious any adjustment would be... Either for the FIA's benefit or as a display for the general public to try and put to bed the idea they could have been cheating.

There's very likely to be other connection points in that workspace which they could be legitimately working on in parc-ferme, and could then actuate the bib adjustment at the same time. If you wanted to make something you're not supposed to be adjusting during parc-ferme discreetly adjustable, it would be a good idea to place in an area where adjustment/disassembly is expected.

There was apparently an official adjustment point above, that was known by the FIA already and had a no tamper seal applied to it. I imagine that piece, along with the attached seal was removed, thus providing access to the same adjustment point deeper down. That wouldn't necessarily be particularly obvious on technical drawing. IE when you remove the official adjustment point, a connecting rod from it is slipped out of the connection to the hidden adjustment point below, allowing them to get a suitable tool (probably not the comedy setup shown publicly...) onto the remaining fixed point of the rod. - Just an example, there's numerous ways it could be done which would result in the tamper sticker being worked around and still make an adjustment.

[WPA]

I found this interesting, RB have fitted two adjusters which by all accounts is to help with floor alignment but why have two adjusters in the first place when all other teams have only one fitted.

[TheDeuce]

WPA said:

I found this interesting, RB have fitted two adjusters which by all accounts is to help with floor alignment but why have two adjusters in the first place when all other teams have only one fitted.

That is interesting, and essentially is what I described in the post above, but with the official (known) adjustment point being accessed in full view beneath the car, that'll have a non tamper seal on it. Then from the other side, through the chassis above, is a second point of adjustment - presumably linked to the same mechanism, but not engaging with the sealed official point of adjustment below.

I don't buy the excuse the it's there to allow alignment with the main floor, because that could be done using the official adjustment point. The placement of the second adjustment point for the bib might make it easier to align the two parts of the floor... But why would they add in extra complexity and risk an accusation of cheating, simply to make life easier?

Even if it was done to make it possible to adjust the floor and bib simultaneously, to perfectly align them, that still means that the bib is independently adjustable and without anyone else knowing about that second point of adjustment, it could obviously have been adjusted.

The excuse of there having to be a person in the cockpit is BS, yes they may have to be there to adjust the floor height/pitch, whatever - but there's no reason they need to be in there to make just a bib adjustment, which is what this is all about.#

Similarly the excuse that bodywork has to be removed/car disassembled to allow access to the second point of adjustment is BS, or at least disingenuous. We know that partial disassembly in the same area takes place during parc ferme for numerous reasons. The suggestion that having to remove certain other parts of the car means they can't use that adjustment illegally is nonsense. There not being a secret second point of adjustment, that is what would make it impossible to adjust

[HocusPocus]

paulguitar said:

DOCG said:

Ferrari must be cheating as well now. There's no other way they could finish above a British driver unless cheating is involved!

The drivers’ nationalities have absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

What jonny foreigner is superior to British beef?????

[NRS]

WPA said:

Jasandjules said:

Teatowell said:

Jasandjules said:

And yet the FIA are not bothering to look at the CCTV... Why not?

Why would they, all sorts of things go on in parc ferme. You think they’re using cctv to pick up millimetres of floor movement?

No I KNOW that they are not, because the FIA have said they are not. My question is why not? Because surely if one team was cheating that would be a basis to review it and say conclusively they were (or not). Now, the fact that Mr Brown has a number of ex RB mechanics and is making a big fuss over this, what does that indicate?

Putting those two factors together, what is the only logical conclusion?

From what I understand Toto and Mr Vesseur are not happy with the whole situation and by all accounts are going to be speaking to the FIA again as to them it makes not sense to run an adjustor like this.

I don't think the matter is fully closed as yet

It is, the FIA’s main purpose these days is to make up vague rules that are open to interpretation so they can manipulate results. Their second purpose is when a very clear rule is broken ignore all the past cheating so you don’t change results. That’s it.

[PhilAsia]

NRS said:

WPA said:

Jasandjules said:

Teatowell said:

Jasandjules said:

And yet the FIA are not bothering to look at the CCTV... Why not?

Why would they, all sorts of things go on in parc ferme. You think they’re using cctv to pick up millimetres of floor movement?

No I KNOW that they are not, because the FIA have said they are not. My question is why not? Because surely if one team was cheating that would be a basis to review it and say conclusively they were (or not). Now, the fact that Mr Brown has a number of ex RB mechanics and is making a big fuss over this, what does that indicate?

Putting those two factors together, what is the only logical conclusion?

From what I understand Toto and Mr Vesseur are not happy with the whole situation and by all accounts are going to be speaking to the FIA again as to them it makes not sense to run an adjustor like this.

I don't think the matter is fully closed as yet

It is, the FIA’s main purpose these days is to make up vague rules that are open to interpretation so they can manipulate results. Their second purpose is when a very clear rule is broken ignore all the past cheating so you don’t change results. That’s it.

Spot on! If they didn't do anything about AD'21, they are definitely not going to do anything apart from whatever is in their plan for the forseeable future.