The Alpine implosion
Discussion
thegreenhell said:
TheDeuce said:
It does all seem to make sense. Have you heard any rumours of Andretti or anyone else sniffing around to make a potential purchase? It seems so clear that the team is being prepped for someone else to step in and make wholesale changes.
I suppose the other possibility is that Renault are not actually looking to sell but have simply royally screwed up the team and now don't quite know what to do with it. Id hope that's not the case!
There remain rumours that Hitech could be a potential buyer, using Mazepin/Uralkali money. Hitech had their own 2026 F1 entry rejected and are currently in arbitration with the FIA. Hitech boss Oliver Oakes was recently appointed as TP of Alpine F1...I suppose the other possibility is that Renault are not actually looking to sell but have simply royally screwed up the team and now don't quite know what to do with it. Id hope that's not the case!
Hopefully that particular rumour is BS.
Not sure how that could work as Mazepin Snr and the parent company of Uralkali are still sanctioned so any due diligence would flag Uralkali as sanction linked and make it hard for them to prove the funds don't come from a sanctioned company or individual. Not sure its worth the hassle for Renault/ Alpine to go through all that when there might be other suitors?
mycool said:
Not sure how that could work as Mazepin Snr and the parent company of Uralkali are still sanctioned so any due diligence would flag Uralkali as sanction linked and make it hard for them to prove the funds don't come from a sanctioned company or individual. Not sure its worth the hassle for Renault/ Alpine to go through all that when there might be other suitors?
Quite.But if you're trying to sell an asset (such as an F1 team), then it would be very much in your interest to make this seem like a realistic option (maybe by hiring a new TP with strong links to these people) in order to try and extract a better bid from other suitors who would be a lot less bother than sanctioned Russians.
Edit: I'm fairly sure that Flavio hasn't been bought in for his engineering and tactial nous. So I'm guessing his remit is to try and get the best possible sale price for the team, and so all these decisions have to be viewed through that lens.
Edited by Rotary Potato on Wednesday 2nd October 12:07
TheDeuce said:
It does all seem to make sense. Have you heard any rumours of Andretti or anyone else sniffing around to make a potential purchase? It seems so clear that the team is being prepped for someone else to step in and make wholesale changes.
I suppose the other possibility is that Renault are not actually looking to sell but have simply royally screwed up the team and now don't quite know what to do with it. Id hope that's not the case!
Andretti has little interest in paying an over-inflated $1bn+ price for an existing team, for as long as the regulations state that the entry fee for a new team is $200m. I suppose the other possibility is that Renault are not actually looking to sell but have simply royally screwed up the team and now don't quite know what to do with it. Id hope that's not the case!
Sandpit Steve said:
Andretti has little interest in paying an over-inflated $1bn+ price for an existing team, for as long as the regulations state that the entry fee for a new team is $200m.
The problem for Andretti is that current Concorde Agreement expires next year and the existing teams are pushing for that entry fee to be increased when they negotiate the new agreement, possibly up to $1b. As they haven't managed to get an entry in this Concorde cycle, Andretti are at the mercy of the teams once again when they try to get an entry after 2026.thegreenhell said:
Sandpit Steve said:
Andretti has little interest in paying an over-inflated $1bn+ price for an existing team, for as long as the regulations state that the entry fee for a new team is $200m.
The problem for Andretti is that current Concorde Agreement expires next year and the existing teams are pushing for that entry fee to be increased when they negotiate the new agreement, possibly up to $1b. As they haven't managed to get an entry in this Concorde cycle, Andretti are at the mercy of the teams once again when they try to get an entry after 2026.If they can’t get in this way, I think they’ll walk away, Andretti isn’t interested in dealing with $1bn of finance hanging over the team before they even start.
mycool said:
Not sure how that could work as Mazepin Snr and the parent company of Uralkali are still sanctioned so any due diligence would flag Uralkali as sanction linked and make it hard for them to prove the funds don't come from a sanctioned company or individual. Not sure its worth the hassle for Renault/ Alpine to go through all that when there might be other suitors?
That was all gone through in another thread (or maybe this one) a while back.I can't remember the details but he is technically able to compete again, I think just not via direct funding from his Father's company, which is still under sanction, as is Dimitry as an individual.
Russian individuals, are allowed to work outside of Russia still. Wikipedia still lists Nikita as being sanctioned against too, but it's out of date: https://shepwedd.com/knowledge/eu-receives-black-a...
I assume that it was fairly easy to challenge, on the basis that he is not his father, is not responsible for his father's choices and also he didn't choose who his father was, which is all valid.
I expect if he/his father seriously wanted to influence Hitech's purchase of an F1 team and reinstate him as a driver, they have had enough time now to figure out some convoluted way to do so legally.
But I still hope such a thing doesn't happen. His father aside, Nikita is not an individua I want to see in the sport and the guy can't drive!
Sandpit Steve said:
TheDeuce said:
It does all seem to make sense. Have you heard any rumours of Andretti or anyone else sniffing around to make a potential purchase? It seems so clear that the team is being prepped for someone else to step in and make wholesale changes.
I suppose the other possibility is that Renault are not actually looking to sell but have simply royally screwed up the team and now don't quite know what to do with it. Id hope that's not the case!
Andretti has little interest in paying an over-inflated $1bn+ price for an existing team, for as long as the regulations state that the entry fee for a new team is $200m. I suppose the other possibility is that Renault are not actually looking to sell but have simply royally screwed up the team and now don't quite know what to do with it. Id hope that's not the case!
The ~$1bn (could be higher in reality now, for any team) valuation floated around is due to the fact that any team is worth that sort of money on the basis that any team can easily cover it's costs each season now, and with the right brand(s) attached can make a substantial profit each year whilst continuing to climb in value as an asset. The return is even better if your team is doing well, but it can make excellent financial sense to own one even if it's on it's arse.
DanielSan said:
hondajack85 said:
Cant see Renault selling it in the near future. They have a huge trophy cabinet and history in F1.
How can say,Andretti and GM inherit that? Or do they just appropriate it in the deal and call themselves x times champions.
They seem to be rebuilding ,which does involve changing things.
The future looks good. Competetive engine ,budget cap,ok drivers.
But in a couple of years,if someone offers them 2 billion quid, who knows?
Flavio Briatore hasnt been bought in to make the team better despite what Alpine came, he's come in to clean the house and make it shiny and attractive to a buyer, that's where part of this decision to get rid of the engine has come from. Renault have already sold a large stake to an investment group, there's nothing stopping them now selling the rest. Given the initial stake was sold to a US investment group, selling to Andretti would make perfect sense.How can say,Andretti and GM inherit that? Or do they just appropriate it in the deal and call themselves x times champions.
They seem to be rebuilding ,which does involve changing things.
The future looks good. Competetive engine ,budget cap,ok drivers.
But in a couple of years,if someone offers them 2 billion quid, who knows?
TheDeuce said:
mycool said:
Not sure how that could work as Mazepin Snr and the parent company of Uralkali are still sanctioned so any due diligence would flag Uralkali as sanction linked and make it hard for them to prove the funds don't come from a sanctioned company or individual. Not sure its worth the hassle for Renault/ Alpine to go through all that when there might be other suitors?
That was all gone through in another thread (or maybe this one) a while back.I can't remember the details but he is technically able to compete again, I think just not via direct funding from his Father's company, which is still under sanction, as is Dimitry as an individual.
Russian individuals, are allowed to work outside of Russia still. Wikipedia still lists Nikita as being sanctioned against too, but it's out of date: https://shepwedd.com/knowledge/eu-receives-black-a...
I assume that it was fairly easy to challenge, on the basis that he is not his father, is not responsible for his father's choices and also he didn't choose who his father was, which is all valid.
I expect if he/his father seriously wanted to influence Hitech's purchase of an F1 team and reinstate him as a driver, they have had enough time now to figure out some convoluted way to do so legally.
But I still hope such a thing doesn't happen. His father aside, Nikita is not an individua I want to see in the sport and the guy can't drive!
thegreenhell said:
TheDeuce said:
mycool said:
Not sure how that could work as Mazepin Snr and the parent company of Uralkali are still sanctioned so any due diligence would flag Uralkali as sanction linked and make it hard for them to prove the funds don't come from a sanctioned company or individual. Not sure its worth the hassle for Renault/ Alpine to go through all that when there might be other suitors?
That was all gone through in another thread (or maybe this one) a while back.I can't remember the details but he is technically able to compete again, I think just not via direct funding from his Father's company, which is still under sanction, as is Dimitry as an individual.
Russian individuals, are allowed to work outside of Russia still. Wikipedia still lists Nikita as being sanctioned against too, but it's out of date: https://shepwedd.com/knowledge/eu-receives-black-a...
I assume that it was fairly easy to challenge, on the basis that he is not his father, is not responsible for his father's choices and also he didn't choose who his father was, which is all valid.
I expect if he/his father seriously wanted to influence Hitech's purchase of an F1 team and reinstate him as a driver, they have had enough time now to figure out some convoluted way to do so legally.
But I still hope such a thing doesn't happen. His father aside, Nikita is not an individua I want to see in the sport and the guy can't drive!
The Russian hierarchy and heads of industry seem to have total influence over Kazakhstan, and is using the country as a conduit for a lot of business. Kazakhstan is however not able to be sanctioned about as the country and it's government have done nothing wrong, other than to be totally powerless when it comes to having to cooperate with their unpleasant neighbour.
F1 itself however does have the choice to resist such dealings, if it chooses to do so. I'm sure the links to Dmitry will be made blindingly obvious by the media if they were to buy an F1 team, even if sanctions are not technically broken. That would be awkward, but F1 is no stranger to riding out awkward dealings.
Personally, I'd far rather see Andretti buy the team - I suspect the powers that be of F1 would too. It's only the existing teams that blocked Andretti setting up a new team, and only for selfish reasons. I don't see why Liberty, the other teams or the FIA would give a hoot about an existing team changing to ownership to Andretti.
TheDeuce said:
That was all gone through in another thread (or maybe this one) a while back.
I can't remember the details but he is technically able to compete again, I think just not via direct funding from his Father's company, which is still under sanction, as is Dimitry as an individual.
Russian individuals, are allowed to work outside of Russia still. Wikipedia still lists Nikita as being sanctioned against too, but it's out of date: https://shepwedd.com/knowledge/eu-receives-black-a...
I assume that it was fairly easy to challenge, on the basis that he is not his father, is not responsible for his father's choices and also he didn't choose who his father was, which is all valid.
I expect if he/his father seriously wanted to influence Hitech's purchase of an F1 team and reinstate him as a driver, they have had enough time now to figure out some convoluted way to do so legally.
But I still hope such a thing doesn't happen. His father aside, Nikita is not an individua I want to see in the sport and the guy can't drive!
Nikita is no longer sanctioned, but his father is and so is Uralkali. I can't remember the details but he is technically able to compete again, I think just not via direct funding from his Father's company, which is still under sanction, as is Dimitry as an individual.
Russian individuals, are allowed to work outside of Russia still. Wikipedia still lists Nikita as being sanctioned against too, but it's out of date: https://shepwedd.com/knowledge/eu-receives-black-a...
I assume that it was fairly easy to challenge, on the basis that he is not his father, is not responsible for his father's choices and also he didn't choose who his father was, which is all valid.
I expect if he/his father seriously wanted to influence Hitech's purchase of an F1 team and reinstate him as a driver, they have had enough time now to figure out some convoluted way to do so legally.
But I still hope such a thing doesn't happen. His father aside, Nikita is not an individua I want to see in the sport and the guy can't drive!
So if someone wants to give Nikita a professional drive, they’re allowed to do so, paying him for being in the car.
To be horrifically fair to the guy, he got himself a Super Licence, so in the grand scheme of things he’s not a bad driver, and can likely make himself a living in LM Hypercars or GT racing.
TheDeuce said:
SNIP
Personally, I'd far rather see Andretti buy the team - I suspect the powers that be of F1 would too. It's only the existing teams that blocked Andretti setting up a new team, and only for selfish reasons. I don't see why Liberty, the other teams or the FIA would give a hoot about an existing team changing to ownership to Andretti.
Personally I wouldn't I want more teams and drivers on the grid and I still think it was an enormous dick move that the teams blocked itPersonally, I'd far rather see Andretti buy the team - I suspect the powers that be of F1 would too. It's only the existing teams that blocked Andretti setting up a new team, and only for selfish reasons. I don't see why Liberty, the other teams or the FIA would give a hoot about an existing team changing to ownership to Andretti.
Sandpit Steve said:
TheDeuce said:
That was all gone through in another thread (or maybe this one) a while back.
I can't remember the details but he is technically able to compete again, I think just not via direct funding from his Father's company, which is still under sanction, as is Dimitry as an individual.
Russian individuals, are allowed to work outside of Russia still. Wikipedia still lists Nikita as being sanctioned against too, but it's out of date: https://shepwedd.com/knowledge/eu-receives-black-a...
I assume that it was fairly easy to challenge, on the basis that he is not his father, is not responsible for his father's choices and also he didn't choose who his father was, which is all valid.
I expect if he/his father seriously wanted to influence Hitech's purchase of an F1 team and reinstate him as a driver, they have had enough time now to figure out some convoluted way to do so legally.
But I still hope such a thing doesn't happen. His father aside, Nikita is not an individua I want to see in the sport and the guy can't drive!
Nikita is no longer sanctioned, but his father is and so is Uralkali. I can't remember the details but he is technically able to compete again, I think just not via direct funding from his Father's company, which is still under sanction, as is Dimitry as an individual.
Russian individuals, are allowed to work outside of Russia still. Wikipedia still lists Nikita as being sanctioned against too, but it's out of date: https://shepwedd.com/knowledge/eu-receives-black-a...
I assume that it was fairly easy to challenge, on the basis that he is not his father, is not responsible for his father's choices and also he didn't choose who his father was, which is all valid.
I expect if he/his father seriously wanted to influence Hitech's purchase of an F1 team and reinstate him as a driver, they have had enough time now to figure out some convoluted way to do so legally.
But I still hope such a thing doesn't happen. His father aside, Nikita is not an individua I want to see in the sport and the guy can't drive!
So if someone wants to give Nikita a professional drive, they’re allowed to do so, paying him for being in the car.
To be horrifically fair to the guy, he got himself a Super Licence, so in the grand scheme of things he’s not a bad driver, and can likely make himself a living in LM Hypercars or GT racing.
Yea he got the super license, with a HUGE amount of paid for extra tuition, I think in an old Merc F1 car - which no doubt helped his feeder series results.
If Hitech bought an F1 team they could do so by using money that indirectly comes from his Dad or his company, as suggested earlier, Kazakhstan outfit that has zero ties to anyone Russian on paper - I'm thinking that's exactly what the current setup is, as per the rumours. Whether or not Nikita were to drive, if Hitech can buy a team, it would most likely involve a lot of money that is essentially from Dmitry.
geeks said:
TheDeuce said:
SNIP
Personally, I'd far rather see Andretti buy the team - I suspect the powers that be of F1 would too. It's only the existing teams that blocked Andretti setting up a new team, and only for selfish reasons. I don't see why Liberty, the other teams or the FIA would give a hoot about an existing team changing to ownership to Andretti.
Personally I wouldn't I want more teams and drivers on the grid and I still think it was an enormous dick move that the teams blocked itPersonally, I'd far rather see Andretti buy the team - I suspect the powers that be of F1 would too. It's only the existing teams that blocked Andretti setting up a new team, and only for selfish reasons. I don't see why Liberty, the other teams or the FIA would give a hoot about an existing team changing to ownership to Andretti.
The dick move was the way the cost caps were introduced, which has made each existing team invaluable, and owners of invaluable assets tend to guard them well.
TheDeuce said:
Sandpit Steve said:
TheDeuce said:
That was all gone through in another thread (or maybe this one) a while back.
I can't remember the details but he is technically able to compete again, I think just not via direct funding from his Father's company, which is still under sanction, as is Dimitry as an individual.
Russian individuals, are allowed to work outside of Russia still. Wikipedia still lists Nikita as being sanctioned against too, but it's out of date: https://shepwedd.com/knowledge/eu-receives-black-a...
I assume that it was fairly easy to challenge, on the basis that he is not his father, is not responsible for his father's choices and also he didn't choose who his father was, which is all valid.
I expect if he/his father seriously wanted to influence Hitech's purchase of an F1 team and reinstate him as a driver, they have had enough time now to figure out some convoluted way to do so legally.
But I still hope such a thing doesn't happen. His father aside, Nikita is not an individua I want to see in the sport and the guy can't drive!
Nikita is no longer sanctioned, but his father is and so is Uralkali. I can't remember the details but he is technically able to compete again, I think just not via direct funding from his Father's company, which is still under sanction, as is Dimitry as an individual.
Russian individuals, are allowed to work outside of Russia still. Wikipedia still lists Nikita as being sanctioned against too, but it's out of date: https://shepwedd.com/knowledge/eu-receives-black-a...
I assume that it was fairly easy to challenge, on the basis that he is not his father, is not responsible for his father's choices and also he didn't choose who his father was, which is all valid.
I expect if he/his father seriously wanted to influence Hitech's purchase of an F1 team and reinstate him as a driver, they have had enough time now to figure out some convoluted way to do so legally.
But I still hope such a thing doesn't happen. His father aside, Nikita is not an individua I want to see in the sport and the guy can't drive!
So if someone wants to give Nikita a professional drive, they’re allowed to do so, paying him for being in the car.
To be horrifically fair to the guy, he got himself a Super Licence, so in the grand scheme of things he’s not a bad driver, and can likely make himself a living in LM Hypercars or GT racing.
Yea he got the super license, with a HUGE amount of paid for extra tuition, I think in an old Merc F1 car - which no doubt helped his feeder series results.
If Hitech bought an F1 team they could do so by using money that indirectly comes from his Dad or his company, as suggested earlier, Kazakhstan outfit that has zero ties to anyone Russian on paper - I'm thinking that's exactly what the current setup is, as per the rumours. Whether or not Nikita were to drive, if Hitech can buy a team, it would most likely involve a lot of money that is essentially from Dmitry.
If the existing teams only wanted 10 competitors, they shouldn’t have clear written rules that allow for 12. Which is exactly what Andretti is going to use to screw them in the American courts. The nakedly self-interested boycot of the new team is an illegal cartel.
Sandpit Steve said:
TheDeuce said:
Sandpit Steve said:
TheDeuce said:
That was all gone through in another thread (or maybe this one) a while back.
I can't remember the details but he is technically able to compete again, I think just not via direct funding from his Father's company, which is still under sanction, as is Dimitry as an individual.
Russian individuals, are allowed to work outside of Russia still. Wikipedia still lists Nikita as being sanctioned against too, but it's out of date: https://shepwedd.com/knowledge/eu-receives-black-a...
I assume that it was fairly easy to challenge, on the basis that he is not his father, is not responsible for his father's choices and also he didn't choose who his father was, which is all valid.
I expect if he/his father seriously wanted to influence Hitech's purchase of an F1 team and reinstate him as a driver, they have had enough time now to figure out some convoluted way to do so legally.
But I still hope such a thing doesn't happen. His father aside, Nikita is not an individua I want to see in the sport and the guy can't drive!
Nikita is no longer sanctioned, but his father is and so is Uralkali. I can't remember the details but he is technically able to compete again, I think just not via direct funding from his Father's company, which is still under sanction, as is Dimitry as an individual.
Russian individuals, are allowed to work outside of Russia still. Wikipedia still lists Nikita as being sanctioned against too, but it's out of date: https://shepwedd.com/knowledge/eu-receives-black-a...
I assume that it was fairly easy to challenge, on the basis that he is not his father, is not responsible for his father's choices and also he didn't choose who his father was, which is all valid.
I expect if he/his father seriously wanted to influence Hitech's purchase of an F1 team and reinstate him as a driver, they have had enough time now to figure out some convoluted way to do so legally.
But I still hope such a thing doesn't happen. His father aside, Nikita is not an individua I want to see in the sport and the guy can't drive!
So if someone wants to give Nikita a professional drive, they’re allowed to do so, paying him for being in the car.
To be horrifically fair to the guy, he got himself a Super Licence, so in the grand scheme of things he’s not a bad driver, and can likely make himself a living in LM Hypercars or GT racing.
Yea he got the super license, with a HUGE amount of paid for extra tuition, I think in an old Merc F1 car - which no doubt helped his feeder series results.
If Hitech bought an F1 team they could do so by using money that indirectly comes from his Dad or his company, as suggested earlier, Kazakhstan outfit that has zero ties to anyone Russian on paper - I'm thinking that's exactly what the current setup is, as per the rumours. Whether or not Nikita were to drive, if Hitech can buy a team, it would most likely involve a lot of money that is essentially from Dmitry.
If the existing teams only wanted 10 competitors, they shouldn’t have clear written rules that allow for 12. Which is exactly what Andretti is going to use to screw them in the American courts. The nakedly self-interested boycot of the new team is an illegal cartel.
How far they let it go is anyone's guess.
I have no opinion on how far the legal case will go. It depends how well the FIA justify their decision not being based primarily on the views of the existing teams, I suppose. For what it's worth, I do hope Andretti are successful and do form a new team.
I guess its down to what type of person is in charge at Renault.
Honda had some bozo running it for a while recently and they dropped out of F1. Couple of years later with someone else they came back.
Do Renault really need the one off sum of $$$ ?
Wouldnt you keep a controlling stake in a money making activity?
How much would it cost to buy back in in 20 years time?
Currently things look better for them in 2026 than they did 10 years ago whenever project 5 years was dreamt up.
Just because a couple of gobby hollywood types have brought in to the team doesnt mean anything.
They also have a stake is some obscure welsh football team.
Maybe the idiot in charge at renault likes hobnobbing with hollywood types because they are more important than anyone else.
Honda had some bozo running it for a while recently and they dropped out of F1. Couple of years later with someone else they came back.
Do Renault really need the one off sum of $$$ ?
Wouldnt you keep a controlling stake in a money making activity?
How much would it cost to buy back in in 20 years time?
Currently things look better for them in 2026 than they did 10 years ago whenever project 5 years was dreamt up.
Just because a couple of gobby hollywood types have brought in to the team doesnt mean anything.
They also have a stake is some obscure welsh football team.
Maybe the idiot in charge at renault likes hobnobbing with hollywood types because they are more important than anyone else.
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff