The Official F1 2025 silly season *contains speculation*

[PhilAsia]

Doink said:

The Brit is noticeably flirting with Flavio Briatore of Alpine.

Not an image that is easy to deal with.

Meds please!

[ajprice]

[Muzzer79]

vaud said:

Respectfully, I think you are being a little naïve.

No car manufacturer would ever hire Briatore back... oh...
...and Virgin and Cadillac signed Pat Symonds.

Horners history of WDCs/WCCs will override any issues. As for liability for an owner, remember that the US voted for an unstable felon. Sure a company like Apple would avoid him, but not all.

Same for Max. Any team would overlook his behaviour in favour of his talent.

This is correct.

Very short memories in F1 and being able to win trumps over a lot of……….transgressions

[suffolk009]

Muzzer79 said:

vaud said:

Respectfully, I think you are being a little naïve.

No car manufacturer would ever hire Briatore back... oh...
...and Virgin and Cadillac signed Pat Symonds.

Horners history of WDCs/WCCs will override any issues. As for liability for an owner, remember that the US voted for an unstable felon. Sure a company like Apple would avoid him, but not all.

Same for Max. Any team would overlook his behaviour in favour of his talent.

This is correct.

Very short memories in F1 and being able to win trumps over a lot of .transgressions

I suppose it depends on whether you look at Horner's success and see him as the king pin, the genius that put it all together, or you see him as the guy who got lucky, was at the right place at the right time and had the right people around him.

If it's the former, then he can do it all over again. If it's the later, you are about to embark on a project likely to fail and a ruinously expensive mistake.

The list of TPs who have delivered a WCC in more than one team is short. From memory I can only think of Brawn. Who are the others?

(ETA Briattore doesn't count. Same team, different name.)

Edited by suffolk009 on Sunday 8th June 07:28

[paulguitar]

suffolk009 said:

Muzzer79 said:

vaud said:

Respectfully, I think you are being a little naïve.

No car manufacturer would ever hire Briatore back... oh...
...and Virgin and Cadillac signed Pat Symonds.

Horners history of WDCs/WCCs will override any issues. As for liability for an owner, remember that the US voted for an unstable felon. Sure a company like Apple would avoid him, but not all.

Same for Max. Any team would overlook his behaviour in favour of his talent.

This is correct.

Very short memories in F1 and being able to win trumps over a lot of .transgressions

I suppose it depends on whether you look at Horner's success and see him as the king pin, the genius that put it all together, or you see him as the guy who got lucky, was at the right place at the right time and had the right people around him.

If it's the former, then he can do it all over again. If it's the later, you are about to embark on a project likely to fail and a ruinously expensive mistake.

The list of TPs who have delivered a WCC in more than one team is short. From memory I can only think of Brawn. Who are the others?

(ETA Briattore doesn't count. Same team, different name.)

Edited by suffolk009 on Sunday 8th June 07:28

Much as I think Horner is smug and untrustworthy, it can't have all been down to 'luck' that he's had such success.

He'd be very at home as a dodgy MP, I'd imagine.

[suffolk009]

paulguitar said:

Much as I think Horner is smug and untrustworthy, it can't have all been down to 'luck' that he's had such success.

He'd be very at home as a dodgy MP, I'd imagine.

I've noticed over the years that if you talk to almost anyone in business that had success and lost it, they will 95% of the time include the line "I/we were unlucky". Conversly I have never ever heard a successful person actually admity that they were lucky.

I wasn't suggesting that Horner's success is all luck. But TPs have moved from one team to another and been unable to replicate their previous success. I see no reason to believe that Horner could defy the odds and create or reshape another winning team.

[vaud]

Aside from Brawn, I can’t think of any.

[carl_w]

vaud said:

Aside from Brawn, I can t think of any.

Brawn wasn't TP at Ferrari or Benetton. And you can't really say he "moved" from Honda->Brawn->Mercedes as it was the same team.

[suffolk009]

carl_w said:

Brawn wasn't TP at Ferrari or Benetton. And you can't really say he "moved" from Honda->Brawn->Mercedes as it was the same team.

Yup. Good point.

[Likes Fast Cars]

vaud said:

suffolk009 said:

I find it absurd than anyone would consider hiring Horner as team principal. He's become utterly toxic. And now that most teams are owned (or sponsored) by car manufacturers he's a potential liability and risk that they'll simply not even entertain.

Respectfully, I think you are being a little naïve.

No car manufacturer would ever hire Briatore back... oh...
...and Virgin and Cadillac signed Pat Symonds.

Horners history of WDCs/WCCs will override any issues. As for liability for an owner, remember that the US voted for an unstable old bloke who had lost the plot and pardoned thousands of criminal cronies using an autopen felon. Sure a company like Apple would avoid him, but not all.

Same for Max. Any team would overlook his behaviour in favour of his talent.

FTFY, you’re welcome.

[Likes Fast Cars]

PhilAsia said:

Doink said:

The Brit is noticeably flirting with Flavio Briatore of Alpine.

Not an image that is easy to deal with.

Meds please!

Geez now I’m really stressed … that picture can never be erased from my memory bank!

[Muzzer79]

suffolk009 said:

paulguitar said:

Much as I think Horner is smug and untrustworthy, it can't have all been down to 'luck' that he's had such success.

He'd be very at home as a dodgy MP, I'd imagine.

I've noticed over the years that if you talk to almost anyone in business that had success and lost it, they will 95% of the time include the line "I/we were unlucky". Conversly I have never ever heard a successful person actually admity that they were lucky.

I wasn't suggesting that Horner's success is all luck. But TPs have moved from one team to another and been unable to replicate their previous success. I see no reason to believe that Horner could defy the odds and create or reshape another winning team.

Historically, team principals in F1 were also team owners - Frank Williams, Ken Tyrell, Colin Chapman, etc.

This meant they didn't move around so much. It's only manufacturer-based teams that had 'employed' TPs and they tended to be very loyal - at this level, jumping around between manufacturers isn't really de rigeur.

However, as F1 has become more of a franchise-like model, we could see this happening more often.

Horner is 52 this year, so is nearer the end than the beginning of his career, one imagines, but it's possible.

I mean, which TP's actually have moved teams? It's a list consisting of fairly recent moves - Fred Vasseur, Otmar Szafneur?

[carl_w]

Muzzer79 said:

Historically, team principals in F1 were also team owners - Frank Williams, Ken Tyrell, Colin Chapman, etc.

This meant they didn't move around so much. It's only manufacturer-based teams that had 'employed' TPs and they tended to be very loyal - at this level, jumping around between manufacturers isn't really de rigeur.

However, as F1 has become more of a franchise-like model, we could see this happening more often.

Horner is 52 this year, so is nearer the end than the beginning of his career, one imagines, but it's possible.

I mean, which TP's actually have moved teams? It's a list consisting of fairly recent moves - Fred Vasseur, Otmar Szafneur?

Eric Boullier? Mattia Binotto?

[Muzzer79]

carl_w said:

Muzzer79 said:

Historically, team principals in F1 were also team owners - Frank Williams, Ken Tyrell, Colin Chapman, etc.

This meant they didn't move around so much. It's only manufacturer-based teams that had 'employed' TPs and they tended to be very loyal - at this level, jumping around between manufacturers isn't really de rigeur.

However, as F1 has become more of a franchise-like model, we could see this happening more often.

Horner is 52 this year, so is nearer the end than the beginning of his career, one imagines, but it's possible.

I mean, which TP's actually have moved teams? It's a list consisting of fairly recent moves - Fred Vasseur, Otmar Szafneur?

Eric Boullier? Mattia Binotto?

Boullier wasn't TP at McLaren

Binotto was TP for Sauber for just two races earlier this year, before Jonathan Wheatley came in.

Edited by Muzzer79 on Monday 9th June 09:36

[Doink]

Horner was good at recruiting the right people, his biggest acquisition was Newey who you could pin most of Redbulls success on

[PRO5T]

Doink said:

Horner was good at recruiting the right people, his biggest acquisition was Newey who you could pin most of Redbulls success on

I agree with the former, not the latter. Red Bulls good runs coincided with a great upper management team and very effective drivers combined-I think it's quite uncharitable not to heap some of that praise on Horner for bringing it all together.

[suffolk009]

PRO5T said:

Doink said:

Horner was good at recruiting the right people, his biggest acquisition was Newey who you could pin most of Redbulls success on

I agree with the former, not the latter. Red Bulls good runs coincided with a great upper management team and very effective drivers combined-I think it's quite uncharitable not to heap some of that praise on Horner for bringing it all together.

I thought Dr Marko was responsible for hiring and firing the drivers. I'm pretty sure Marko was put there Mateschitz.

[Muzzer79]

suffolk009 said:

PRO5T said:

Doink said:

Horner was good at recruiting the right people, his biggest acquisition was Newey who you could pin most of Redbulls success on

I agree with the former, not the latter. Red Bulls good runs coincided with a great upper management team and very effective drivers combined-I think it's quite uncharitable not to heap some of that praise on Horner for bringing it all together.

I thought Dr Marko was responsible for hiring and firing the drivers. I'm pretty sure Marko was put there Mateschitz.

Marko ran (runs) the young driver programme and was an advisor to Red Bull, particularly to Mateschitz.

The driver philosophy of Red Bull in breeding young talent and promoting them was developed by Mateschitz, with Marko and Horner both towing that line.

So, Horner was ultimately responsible for drivers in the main team, working to the RBR philosophy.

And I agree with PRO5T, for all his (Horner's) unsavouriness, it's simplistic to pin all of RBR's success down to "luck" and "Adrian Newey" rather than crediting some of it to Horner, who has steered the ship for 20 years.

[vaud]

And wasn’t Horner touted as a bit of an upstart in the piranha pool?

I think he has done well and you need one hell of a personality and thick skin to survive in F1…

[Hustle_]

vaud said:

And wasn t Horner touted as a bit of an upstart in the piranha pool?

I think he has done well and you need one hell of a personality and thick skin to survive in F1

He was in his very early 30s when he was 'promoted' to F1, very much an upstart by F1 standards, but had been running an F2 team with success, Carlin was it? A brave decision by RB which has been absolutely vindicated.