Nigel Mansell one of the Greats ?
Discussion
LukeBrown66 said:
I think my only point about CART, and even to this day is that in certain circumstances even racers that have raced over there for years will be beaten by a far brighter talent.
Nigel was at the time probably behind only Prost and Senna in terms of talent, and in CART terms possibly ahead of either of them if they all moved over, in that the cars were very "manual", hard to drive needing brute force to some extent, turbo lag, difficult, far more than F1 cars of the time, though equally challenging I dare say.
If you stuck Lewis or Schumacher in their prime remember in the best CART team I am sure they would also win the title, as the CART drivers, though very good at what they do, are not as good talent wise, or they would, amazingly also not be in CART, they would be in F1. Remember Andretti, that was disastrous.
What it did do is open the eyes on F1 teams to people like Villeneuve, Zanardi (although that failed miserably) Da Matta and Montoya et al who all did varying well.
Zanardi, as discussed was established in Europe, and raced in F1 before CARTNigel was at the time probably behind only Prost and Senna in terms of talent, and in CART terms possibly ahead of either of them if they all moved over, in that the cars were very "manual", hard to drive needing brute force to some extent, turbo lag, difficult, far more than F1 cars of the time, though equally challenging I dare say.
If you stuck Lewis or Schumacher in their prime remember in the best CART team I am sure they would also win the title, as the CART drivers, though very good at what they do, are not as good talent wise, or they would, amazingly also not be in CART, they would be in F1. Remember Andretti, that was disastrous.
What it did do is open the eyes on F1 teams to people like Villeneuve, Zanardi (although that failed miserably) Da Matta and Montoya et al who all did varying well.
Da Matta was in British F3 for a year or two in the mid nineties so F1 teams will have had him on their radar...
Montoya tested for Williams before racing in CART
And as for Villeneuve...
To claim it was Mansell who in any way led F1 teams to these particular drivers is ignorant and embarrassing
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 30th August 08:14
I think the reference to Villenuve is to fils , not pere . Gilles came on the F 1 radar after hugely impressing James Hunt in Formula Atlantic. Having enjoyed watching Gilles from close up in period (Druids in the T3 was more like a MK 2 Escort on special stage) I rather doubt if his effervescent style would have served him well at Indy ....
pablo said:
Zanardi, as discussed was established in Europe, and raced in F1 before CART
Da Matta was in British F3 for a year or two in the mid nineties so F1 teams will have had him on their radar...
Montoya tested for Williams before racing in CART
And as for Villeneuve...
To claim it was Mansell who in any way led F1 teams to these particular drivers is ignorant and embarrassing
Who is claiming that?Da Matta was in British F3 for a year or two in the mid nineties so F1 teams will have had him on their radar...
Montoya tested for Williams before racing in CART
And as for Villeneuve...
To claim it was Mansell who in any way led F1 teams to these particular drivers is ignorant and embarrassing
Edited by pablo on Sunday 30th August 08:14
That Ferrari is an aerodynamic disaster.
Rather a shame to be picked over when you didn't even get the right Villeneuve, by moving on.
My point being CART was not really on F1's radar before Nigel went there.
It actually became a threat in terms of tv, I know at the time before and after that switch I was watching just as much CART as I was F1, it was a fab series.
But before Nigel who came over? Not many if any. Tracy had the odd test, not sure if Greg Moore did before his tragic death.
It was seen as a career move, there were two moves, to make, CART or Japan F3000, that is how Irvine, Frentzen , I think even Ralf went. Others did their formative stuff here and went to CART after failing to get to F1, in say 88 that was not a move that was possible, Nigel and his success and the series success made people look at CART more than they used to.
And I will give you a good reason. Schumacher.
No-one here could beat him routinely other than Williams in a better car, Williams actually went the CART route to beat him and it worked, then they went for Frentzen and it was a disaster. Do you think in 89 if Jacques had been dominating CART he would have got to F1? Maybe, but not in the best car.
My point being CART was not really on F1's radar before Nigel went there.
It actually became a threat in terms of tv, I know at the time before and after that switch I was watching just as much CART as I was F1, it was a fab series.
But before Nigel who came over? Not many if any. Tracy had the odd test, not sure if Greg Moore did before his tragic death.
It was seen as a career move, there were two moves, to make, CART or Japan F3000, that is how Irvine, Frentzen , I think even Ralf went. Others did their formative stuff here and went to CART after failing to get to F1, in say 88 that was not a move that was possible, Nigel and his success and the series success made people look at CART more than they used to.
And I will give you a good reason. Schumacher.
No-one here could beat him routinely other than Williams in a better car, Williams actually went the CART route to beat him and it worked, then they went for Frentzen and it was a disaster. Do you think in 89 if Jacques had been dominating CART he would have got to F1? Maybe, but not in the best car.
More the driver market, Nigel went there maybe no as Emmo, Moreno et al did as they were closing down their careers maybe, he went there as the current champion, obviiously with no choice to stay!
the other people mentioned like Clark and Hill only went there as one offs. So I do think ART became more of a talent pool once younger drivers went there, not before really.
the other people mentioned like Clark and Hill only went there as one offs. So I do think ART became more of a talent pool once younger drivers went there, not before really.
LukeBrown66 said:
Rather a shame to be picked over when you didn't even get the right Villeneuve, by moving on.
My point being CART was not really on F1's radar before Nigel went there.
It actually became a threat in terms of tv, I know at the time before and after that switch I was watching just as much CART as I was F1, it was a fab series.
But before Nigel who came over? Not many if any. Tracy had the odd test, not sure if Greg Moore did before his tragic death.
It was seen as a career move, there were two moves, to make, CART or Japan F3000, that is how Irvine, Frentzen , I think even Ralf went. Others did their formative stuff here and went to CART after failing to get to F1, in say 88 that was not a move that was possible, Nigel and his success and the series success made people look at CART more than they used to.
And I will give you a good reason. Schumacher.
No-one here could beat him routinely other than Williams in a better car, Williams actually went the CART route to beat him and it worked, then they went for Frentzen and it was a disaster. Do you think in 89 if Jacques had been dominating CART he would have got to F1? Maybe, but not in the best car.
Hardly the “wrong” Villeneuve, the point was Gilles was probably more of an influence on Jacques’ F1 career than Mansell..... I’ll try not to be so subtle in future.My point being CART was not really on F1's radar before Nigel went there.
It actually became a threat in terms of tv, I know at the time before and after that switch I was watching just as much CART as I was F1, it was a fab series.
But before Nigel who came over? Not many if any. Tracy had the odd test, not sure if Greg Moore did before his tragic death.
It was seen as a career move, there were two moves, to make, CART or Japan F3000, that is how Irvine, Frentzen , I think even Ralf went. Others did their formative stuff here and went to CART after failing to get to F1, in say 88 that was not a move that was possible, Nigel and his success and the series success made people look at CART more than they used to.
And I will give you a good reason. Schumacher.
No-one here could beat him routinely other than Williams in a better car, Williams actually went the CART route to beat him and it worked, then they went for Frentzen and it was a disaster. Do you think in 89 if Jacques had been dominating CART he would have got to F1? Maybe, but not in the best car.
Of course CART was on F1s radar, but only because Fittipaldi and Andretti were still there beating drivers half their age, it was seen as a bit of a joke and not a career move. Sure the racing was fast, exciting and watching oval races on terrestrial tv was a nice change but it wasn’t the pinnacle of motorsport, just open wheel NASCAR.
Not many Americans came over because F1 was very Euro-centric and drivers were spotted in National series such as F3 early on, watched and then offered drives when mature, that made breaking into F1 quite hard for any American who hadn’t started their career over here.
Mansell can be credited with many things but not, as you suggest, bringing F1 to the attention of the four drivers you referred to, nor taking CART to the masses.....
I’d not heard about that race in France that goes on for a whole day until Mansell tried it in 2010, Le Mans it’s called, you should check it out... I’ll bet loads of other drivers go there now.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 30th August 18:56
LukeBrown66 said:
More the driver market, Nigel went there maybe no as Emmo, Moreno et al did as they were closing down their careers maybe, he went there as the current champion, obviiously with no choice to stay!
the other people mentioned like Clark and Hill only went there as one offs. So I do think ART became more of a talent pool once younger drivers went there, not before really.
Clark went to the Indy 500 every year from 1963 to 1967, and was scheduled to do 1968 as well. In addition he raced at a few other 'Indy' events (USAC as was).the other people mentioned like Clark and Hill only went there as one offs. So I do think ART became more of a talent pool once younger drivers went there, not before really.
JPvanRossem said:
Indeed. And the US has always had such a massive domestic racing scene that American drivers didn't need to come to Europe to hit paydirt, and if they did, their sponsors wouldn't come with them.
Scott Dixon!A quick Wikipedia shows he tested for Williams in 2004, by which time he was already Indycar series chamption. Since then, he's won four more Indycar titles, 50 Indycar races including the Indy 500 (won at least one race a year for 18 years) , as well as multiple Daytona 24 hour class and outright victories. I don't know if any F1 teams looked at him post-2004, but even if they did, by that time, why would he risk it, given the career and relationship he'd built? I'm not sure even a front running F1 drive would have mattered at that point.
The USA exerted a very strong gravitational pull on European drivers in the 60s and 70s- stroner by far than now , when busier calendars mean drivers are often one trick ponies . Indy was a big draw , after Chapman rendered the front engined roadster obsolete overnight , but CanAm was even bigger . Surtees, Hobbs, Oliver , Elford , Siffert , Stewart and 'the Bruce andDenny Show' were all successful at times , the latter pair dominant. Big bhp and big bucks .
Mansell was continuing a long tradition , primarily bcause it had become the only show in town for him
Mansell was continuing a long tradition , primarily bcause it had become the only show in town for him
Lentilist said:
JPvanRossem said:
Indeed. And the US has always had such a massive domestic racing scene that American drivers didn't need to come to Europe to hit paydirt, and if they did, their sponsors wouldn't come with them.
Scott Dixon!A quick Wikipedia shows he tested for Williams in 2004, by which time he was already Indycar series chamption. Since then, he's won four more Indycar titles, 50 Indycar races including the Indy 500 (won at least one race a year for 18 years) , as well as multiple Daytona 24 hour class and outright victories. I don't know if any F1 teams looked at him post-2004, but even if they did, by that time, why would he risk it, given the career and relationship he'd built? I'm not sure even a front running F1 drive would have mattered at that point.
LukeBrown66 said:
My point being CART was not really on F1's radar before Nigel went there.
Rick Mears tested for Brabham in the early-mid 80s. Strangely he turned them down and maintains the diversity offered in Indycar was more of a challenge. I've not come across Brabham's side of things.At this time America was and still is regarded as a dumping ground for European schooled drivers.
I think this was mentioned in Zanardi's autobiography but in the 90s chassis builders like Reynard were pushing for the Euro-schooled drivers because of their road course ability and feedback.
JPvanRossem said:
pablo said:
Hardly the “wrong” Villeneuve, the point was Gilles was probably more of an influence on Jacques’ F1 career than Mansell..... I’ll try not to be so subtle in future.
Of course CART was on F1s radar, but only because Fittipaldi and Andretti were still there beating drivers half their age, it was seen as a bit of a joke and not a career move. Sure the racing was fast, exciting and watching oval races on terrestrial tv was a nice change but it wasn’t the pinnacle of motorsport, just open wheel NASCAR.
Not many Americans came over because F1 was very Euro-centric and drivers were spotted in National series such as F3 early on, watched and then offered drives when mature, that made breaking into F1 quite hard for any American who hadn’t started their career over here.
Mansell can be credited with many things but not, as you suggest, bringing F1 to the attention of the four drivers you referred to, nor taking CART to the masses.....
Indeed. And the US has always had such a massive domestic racing scene that American drivers didn't need to come to Europe to hit paydirt, and if they did, their sponsors wouldn't come with them.Of course CART was on F1s radar, but only because Fittipaldi and Andretti were still there beating drivers half their age, it was seen as a bit of a joke and not a career move. Sure the racing was fast, exciting and watching oval races on terrestrial tv was a nice change but it wasn’t the pinnacle of motorsport, just open wheel NASCAR.
Not many Americans came over because F1 was very Euro-centric and drivers were spotted in National series such as F3 early on, watched and then offered drives when mature, that made breaking into F1 quite hard for any American who hadn’t started their career over here.
Mansell can be credited with many things but not, as you suggest, bringing F1 to the attention of the four drivers you referred to, nor taking CART to the masses.....
Tracy certainly tested for Benetton, and obviously there were a few guys who drove in both, Boesel, Moreno, Papis , Fabi to name a few.
For a few years in the mid 90's we had two singularly fabulous elite single seater series. with differing chassis and engiens, great racing and variety.
For a few years in the mid 90's we had two singularly fabulous elite single seater series. with differing chassis and engiens, great racing and variety.
LukeBrown66 said:
Tracy certainly tested for Benetton
That was in 1994 after Mansell won the Indycar championship and Indycar was taken more seriously.PT turned down Benetton because he didn't want to be managed by Flavio which also delayed his test! Zanardi would end up suffering from Flavio's management - test driver without guaranteed mileage.
I would argue that point
The Williams in late 85 was the best car, it was certainly the best car in 86 and 87.
89 was a great year that Ferrari was a great car but not the best
And 91 and 92 Williams were the best cars that time.
leaving his 94 win.
So for me he usually won in the best car lol!
The Williams in late 85 was the best car, it was certainly the best car in 86 and 87.
89 was a great year that Ferrari was a great car but not the best
And 91 and 92 Williams were the best cars that time.
leaving his 94 win.
So for me he usually won in the best car lol!
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