Lewis Hamilton G.O.A.T. ?

Lewis Hamilton G.O.A.T. ?

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sparta6

3,689 posts

99 months

Friday 28th May 2021
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ELUSIVEJIM said:
It was a severe misjudgment on Hill's part. He only had his front wheel in that gap hence why he retired.

I am sure if it was the other way around it would still be Schumacher fault laugh
Entering an ever decreasing gap. Hill since admitted he made a rookie mistake.

But the British press decided it was the German's fault hehe

paulguitar

23,104 posts

112 months

Friday 28th May 2021
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
Hill since admitted he made a rookie mistake.
I don't think that's quite what he said, is it?

Happy to be corrected if you have a link?





Exige77

6,518 posts

190 months

Friday 28th May 2021
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sparta6 said:
Exige77 said:
I think David Coulthard was on record saying the contract he was offered at Ferrari was clearly saying he would be number 2 to MS.

They might not have contained the words “you are number 2” but the meaning was clear.

He declined as we all know.
Instead DC chose to be Mika's unofficial number 2
What’s that got to do with the price of cheese ?

You’re obsessed with number 2s.

Are you constipated ?

Siao

808 posts

39 months

Friday 28th May 2021
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
sparta6 said:
Hill since admitted he made a rookie mistake.
I don't think that's quite what he said, is it?

Happy to be corrected if you have a link?
Hill has done an interview saying that he should have waited to overtake at a later stage, but I can't find it now, it seems that it was removed from youtube. He has also called his move "clumsy":

https://www.planetf1.com/news/damon-hill-michael-s...

sparta6

3,689 posts

99 months

Friday 28th May 2021
quotequote all
Siao said:
paulguitar said:
sparta6 said:
Hill since admitted he made a rookie mistake.
I don't think that's quite what he said, is it?

Happy to be corrected if you have a link?
Hill has done an interview saying that he should have waited to overtake at a later stage, but I can't find it now, it seems that it was removed from youtube. He has also called his move "clumsy":

https://www.planetf1.com/news/damon-hill-michael-s...
Kudos to Hill for owning up.

i'll also do a straw poll at the Groucho club tonight, usuall plenty of British press peeps there so I won't expect much bias hehe

paulguitar

23,104 posts

112 months

Friday 28th May 2021
quotequote all
Siao said:
Hill has done an interview saying that he should have waited to overtake at a later stage, but I can't find it now, it seems that it was removed from youtube. He has also called his move "clumsy":

https://www.planetf1.com/news/damon-hill-michael-s...
Interesting, thanks.

The main point is that Hill didn't know Schumacher had just been into the wall. He saw him way offline and went for the gap, as any racer would do. Schumacher knew he had damaged his own car, saw Hill coming, and deliberately took him out.

BTW, none of this is anything to do with MS being German.





MarkwG

4,811 posts

188 months

Friday 28th May 2021
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Siao said:
MarkwG said:
Siao said:
MarkwG said:
No, it's not bias against a German, how ridiculous - it's calling out a regular & unrepentant cheat. He was fully aware of what was happening at Benneton, he was complicit in it, & benefitted enormously. He left Benneton because Ferrari made him, Ross Brawn & Rory Byrne a better offer, no more, no less. That it was Verstappen that nearly got barbequed, not him, was luck. He was not unfairly judged against others; no-one else came close to him in terms of abusing the system, barring perhaps Senna.

What are you talking about Jackie Stewart for? He would never consider racing in the manner Schumacher did, no -one would then, it was considered irresponsible as much as anything, because you'd either kill the other driver or be killed yourself. Hard racing is one thing, racing in bad faith is entirely another. No-one questions that Schumacher had number 1 status, or that the T car was set for him, that wasn't unusual in most teams: that he insisted on it contractually, that he didn't share his data whilst insisting the number 2 shared his, that was more unusual, & a function of the power & control he wielded - but it has nothing to do with whether he cheated or not. Senna & Prost were at war with each other; Schumacher targeted anyone in his way - he certainly learned that he could get away with it from the Senna/Prost events, but it was already part of his racing style. So, no he wasn't judged unfairly - he was allowed to get away with his poor behaviour because of the belief he could walk on water, whereas, he could walk on water in no small part because he got away with his bad behaviour. For those who believe in sport being about fair play, that was difficult to stomach, & yes, turned a number of people off the sport, me included.
A lot of accusations here, without much proof frankly. We haven't even seen his contract, his team mates mentioned that they never had Nr2 statuses, yet you just know all that.

I think I'll bow out on this, as you seem to have made up your mind and my points probably went above your head.
Plenty on the record about all of it - you're the one not providing any. Over our heads - really? Reduced to ad hom already speaks volumes...
Clearly saying that I'll bow out wasn't enough. But reduced to ad hom, really? Nice try, I said that it went over your head as you never provided anything, just skipped over it so you either never understood me or just plainly ignored the post. Apologies if you took it personally, it wasn't meant like an attack.

To be clear, I never claimed that I had proof about the following:

"He was fully aware of what was happening at Benneton, he was complicit in it"

"Schumacher had number 1 status, or that the T car was set for him, that wasn't unusual in most teams: that he insisted on it contractually, that he didn't share his data whilst insisting the number 2 shared his"

That would be you, your text. So please, kindly show us his contract that mentions all that or how he was complicit in Benetton's shenanigans.


Again, you claimed these, the onus is on you to show it as you claimed it, but something tells me that you will not do that.

For the record, we have only seen Senna's and Piquet's contracts from Lotus asking for N1 statuses in the 80's. No one else's. So if you are claiming these things "contractually", I'd love to see that. Thanks
For the record, since it seems you'll not be responding - the evidence is in the behaviours of those around him. And, as others have said, Johnny Herbert said as such, & I heard him say it, word for word.

If you're looking for the printed contract, then you'll not get it, as you well know - a private contract is unlikely to enter the public domain any time soon. However, there's more than enough circumstantial evidence out there, if you care to see it, or look. You really think the drivers in a racing team wouldn't be aware of exactly what the team was doing? Somewhat naïve, if that's the case, we're not talking about VWs diesel shenanigans - there's just the two drivers, plus a test team, all motivated to win - you think a driver that could tell if the spring rates had changed, wouldn't know if there's traction control..?

Siao

808 posts

39 months

Friday 28th May 2021
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
Siao said:
Hill has done an interview saying that he should have waited to overtake at a later stage, but I can't find it now, it seems that it was removed from youtube. He has also called his move "clumsy":

https://www.planetf1.com/news/damon-hill-michael-s...
Interesting, thanks.

The main point is that Hill didn't know Schumacher had just been into the wall. He saw him way offline and went for the gap, as any racer would do. Schumacher knew he had damaged his own car, saw Hill coming, and deliberately took him out.

BTW, none of this is anything to do with MS being German.
Most drivers would go for an opportunity. I think that Hill was somewhat disappointed with himself as it was obvious that the gap was shrinking when he committed to it. And with the Benetton seemingly out of shape (he had caught up to the Benetton easily from memory), there was enough time to wait and overtake later on. All that with the benefit of hindsight obviously.

Anyway, he took his revenge plenty after that!

angrymoby

2,605 posts

177 months

Friday 28th May 2021
quotequote all
Siao said:
Anyway, he took his revenge plenty after that!
...but in doing so didn't cost Schumi a WDC (which was a shame)

Siao

808 posts

39 months

Friday 28th May 2021
quotequote all
MarkwG said:
For the record, since it seems you'll not be responding - the evidence is in the behaviours of those around him. And, as others have said, Johnny Herbert said as such, & I heard him say it, word for word.

If you're looking for the printed contract, then you'll not get it, as you well know - a private contract is unlikely to enter the public domain any time soon. However, there's more than enough circumstantial evidence out there, if you care to see it, or look. You really think the drivers in a racing team wouldn't be aware of exactly what the team was doing? Somewhat naïve, if that's the case, we're not talking about VWs diesel shenanigans - there's just the two drivers, plus a test team, all motivated to win - you think a driver that could tell if the spring rates had changed, wouldn't know if there's traction control..?
Since posters won't letting me bow out, I may as well respond! I'm always up for a good conversation.


Herbert had a beef with Briatore, that is well known. Mainly as he wasn't given a few days testing that he requested and because they kept some of Schumacher's printouts out of reach. That was short lived, they allowed him to see the printouts afterwards. In Imola he tried the same settings as Schumacher and he couldn't make it work anyway, they had a different way of driving. That comes from Herbert himself (https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/june-1995/17/the-herbert-conspiracy).

As for the traction control, I think you need to read a bit on Toet's posts and find out what it really was. I'll provide it for you: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-rotational-iner...

In short, they achieved a similar result as traction control, in a legal way. If they drivers knew that, then that would be fine I guess?

Siao

808 posts

39 months

Friday 28th May 2021
quotequote all
angrymoby said:
Siao said:
Anyway, he took his revenge plenty after that!
...but in doing so didn't cost Schumi a WDC (which was a shame)
such a shame

MustangGT

11,553 posts

279 months

Friday 28th May 2021
quotequote all
Siao said:
Since posters won't letting me bow out, I may as well respond! I'm always up for a good conversation.
?? Nobody forces you to read and respond to this thread

Siao

808 posts

39 months

Friday 28th May 2021
quotequote all
MustangGT said:
Siao said:
Since posters won't letting me bow out, I may as well respond! I'm always up for a good conversation.
?? Nobody forces you to read and respond to this thread
T'was a joke... Hence the "!".

MarkwG

4,811 posts

188 months

Friday 28th May 2021
quotequote all
Siao said:
MarkwG said:
For the record, since it seems you'll not be responding - the evidence is in the behaviours of those around him. And, as others have said, Johnny Herbert said as such, & I heard him say it, word for word.

If you're looking for the printed contract, then you'll not get it, as you well know - a private contract is unlikely to enter the public domain any time soon. However, there's more than enough circumstantial evidence out there, if you care to see it, or look. You really think the drivers in a racing team wouldn't be aware of exactly what the team was doing? Somewhat naïve, if that's the case, we're not talking about VWs diesel shenanigans - there's just the two drivers, plus a test team, all motivated to win - you think a driver that could tell if the spring rates had changed, wouldn't know if there's traction control..?
Since posters won't letting me bow out, I may as well respond! I'm always up for a good conversation.


Herbert had a beef with Briatore, that is well known. Mainly as he wasn't given a few days testing that he requested and because they kept some of Schumacher's printouts out of reach. That was short lived, they allowed him to see the printouts afterwards. In Imola he tried the same settings as Schumacher and he couldn't make it work anyway, they had a different way of driving. That comes from Herbert himself (https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/june-1995/17/the-herbert-conspiracy).

As for the traction control, I think you need to read a bit on Toet's posts and find out what it really was. I'll provide it for you: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-rotational-iner...

In short, they achieved a similar result as traction control, in a legal way. If they drivers knew that, then that would be fine I guess?
No doubt Herbert had a "beef" with Briatore, I suspect it was more likely as a result of being dumped in favour of Pirro in 1989. That may also contribute to his perception of being short changed, but the fact that he had to make his position clear strongly suggests he wasn't considered equivalent to Schumacher from the start, but enough of a potential threat that he wasn't privy to Schumachers data, whilst Schumacher had access to his.

I'm pretty clear on how traction control works, thanks, that's not the point - which is that there's no way a driver of Schumachers talent would not be aware the car was operating with it, or a system operating in that manner if you prefer, whether illegal or not. Like all the drivers, he would have been involved in the testing & well aware of the rules around the legality of it. Whether he also knew of the fuel rig modifications, perhaps, perhaps not - but he will have been aware of why the fuel flow was limited, & the effect that not limiting had. There's no suggestion he wrote the software, or made the rig, as you originally inferred - but there's no way he wasn't aware of what was happening around him.

Leicester Loyal

4,517 posts

121 months

Sunday 27th June 2021
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How many more seasons do we reckon he's going to do? For me next year will be his last.

paulguitar

23,104 posts

112 months

Sunday 27th June 2021
quotequote all
Leicester Loyal said:
How many more seasons do we reckon he's going to do? For me next year will be his last.
I think so too. I think this season the title is unlikely, it would be amazing if can pull off an 8th in 2022 in a very different car.



anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 27th June 2021
quotequote all
Siao said:
paulguitar said:
sparta6 said:
Hill since admitted he made a rookie mistake.
I don't think that's quite what he said, is it?

Happy to be corrected if you have a link?
Hill has done an interview saying that he should have waited to overtake at a later stage, but I can't find it now, it seems that it was removed from youtube. He has also called his move "clumsy":

https://www.planetf1.com/news/damon-hill-michael-s...
What he actually says is: if at the time I had known something which I found out later, I wouldn’t have done what I did. Which is a bit more nuanced.

mat205125

17,790 posts

212 months

Monday 28th June 2021
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
Leicester Loyal said:
How many more seasons do we reckon he's going to do? For me next year will be his last.
I think so too. I think this season the title is unlikely, it would be amazing if can pull off an 8th in 2022 in a very different car.
.... a very different car that a strong chance of being the fastest??

Reckon there are any other teams that could lure him into a 2022 drive, or is it Mercedes on nothing??

mattdavies

252 posts

156 months

Monday 28th June 2021
quotequote all
mat205125 said:
Reckon there are any other teams that could lure him into a 2022 drive, or is it Mercedes on nothing??
I dont think it would be an easy choice, I think he has learnt a lot of lessons about what he does and doesnt want in a contract. in his Mclaren days he was quite constricted whereas now at Mercedes he is given more free reign over his down time as long as it doesnt affect his on track performance. I feel like this would play a major part in any change in team.

Muzzer79

9,806 posts

186 months

Monday 28th June 2021
quotequote all
mat205125 said:
paulguitar said:
Leicester Loyal said:
How many more seasons do we reckon he's going to do? For me next year will be his last.
I think so too. I think this season the title is unlikely, it would be amazing if can pull off an 8th in 2022 in a very different car.
.... a very different car that a strong chance of being the fastest??

Reckon there are any other teams that could lure him into a 2022 drive, or is it Mercedes on nothing??
Domination is historically cyclical. For that reason I doubt that Mercedes will dominate the new era, but anything can happen.

I think it's Mercedes or nothing. I can't see him going elsewhere for a new project - he has often spoken about wanting to remain in the Mercedes fold long after his F1 career is over.

I'd like to see him in the US actually. Indycar or even giving NASCAR a go.