RE: Jaguar's Triple Sports Car Treat
Discussion
sunsurfer said:
Hmmm... interesting information Snaelro. What does this tell us? That the S-type was not universally derided for its retro styling and neither was the XJ?
Impression I get is there is not much wrong with the product but over the past decade Jaguars image has been slipping in the national and international consciousness. It is hard to compete with BMW, Mercedes et al. This is not just Jaguar's problem as Saab couldn't hack it nor could Renault, Citroen and Cadillac and Lexus (in Europe). I think the 'answer' to a slipping image is hype and marketing. Jaguar is doing this well the concept car C-X75 wowed and generated a lot of column inches. with even more column inches when they put it into production.
Guys at Jaguar are doing well - keep up the hype, PR and marketing as it entices people to try and buy the cars. Thus paying for the development of exciting new cars.
Pr and marketing mean nothing if you don't have a product which lives up to the expectations. Before you have the PR and marketing you need a great product. The fluffy dressing stuff comes afterwards...always afterwards, otherwise it's hollow and meaningless.Impression I get is there is not much wrong with the product but over the past decade Jaguars image has been slipping in the national and international consciousness. It is hard to compete with BMW, Mercedes et al. This is not just Jaguar's problem as Saab couldn't hack it nor could Renault, Citroen and Cadillac and Lexus (in Europe). I think the 'answer' to a slipping image is hype and marketing. Jaguar is doing this well the concept car C-X75 wowed and generated a lot of column inches. with even more column inches when they put it into production.
Guys at Jaguar are doing well - keep up the hype, PR and marketing as it entices people to try and buy the cars. Thus paying for the development of exciting new cars.
pb63 said:
sunsurfer said:
Hmmm... interesting information Snaelro. What does this tell us? That the S-type was not universally derided for its retro styling and neither was the XJ?
Impression I get is there is not much wrong with the product but over the past decade Jaguars image has been slipping in the national and international consciousness. It is hard to compete with BMW, Mercedes et al. This is not just Jaguar's problem as Saab couldn't hack it nor could Renault, Citroen and Cadillac and Lexus (in Europe). I think the 'answer' to a slipping image is hype and marketing. Jaguar is doing this well the concept car C-X75 wowed and generated a lot of column inches. with even more column inches when they put it into production.
Guys at Jaguar are doing well - keep up the hype, PR and marketing as it entices people to try and buy the cars. Thus paying for the development of exciting new cars.
Pr and marketing mean nothing if you don't have a product which lives up to the expectations. Before you have the PR and marketing you need a great product. The fluffy dressing stuff comes afterwards...always afterwards, otherwise it's hollow and meaningless.Impression I get is there is not much wrong with the product but over the past decade Jaguars image has been slipping in the national and international consciousness. It is hard to compete with BMW, Mercedes et al. This is not just Jaguar's problem as Saab couldn't hack it nor could Renault, Citroen and Cadillac and Lexus (in Europe). I think the 'answer' to a slipping image is hype and marketing. Jaguar is doing this well the concept car C-X75 wowed and generated a lot of column inches. with even more column inches when they put it into production.
Guys at Jaguar are doing well - keep up the hype, PR and marketing as it entices people to try and buy the cars. Thus paying for the development of exciting new cars.
Clearly you do need good product but you also need a good reputation and for that product to be known.
snaelro said:
CX75 is a waist of time, energy and money, if you ask me. we are not in the 80's anymore. today's supercar/hypercar have to be perfect, not just cool. the competition is very tough. look at the mclaren MP4, it is a great car, built by probably the most advanced car company in the UK, 5 years developpement, massive investment, 100% commitment and still they disappoint and doesn't match the expectations.
so we can fear the worse for jaguar.
what jaguar need in the first place is to launch their entry level sportscar to compete with Z4 and boxster, and spend money on a new dual clutch gearbox and some new petrol engines to fill the gap between the 4 cyl of the evoque and the V8 385bhp of the XF/XJ, because they have nothing to go against BMW/audi/porsche 6 cyl-250/300bhp.
a sportscar with a torque converter is not a sportscar
I don't think C-X75 is a waste of time as it works as a halo model for the rest of the range. I'm not sure what it would cost to produce but the glow it should impart on the rest of the range could make it financially worthwhile.so we can fear the worse for jaguar.
what jaguar need in the first place is to launch their entry level sportscar to compete with Z4 and boxster, and spend money on a new dual clutch gearbox and some new petrol engines to fill the gap between the 4 cyl of the evoque and the V8 385bhp of the XF/XJ, because they have nothing to go against BMW/audi/porsche 6 cyl-250/300bhp.
a sportscar with a torque converter is not a sportscar
Yes I take your point about tough competition and the world expecting perfection even from small(ish) makers like Jaguar and McLaren.
I don't fear the worse for Jaguar - I'm an optimist and looking forward to a very exciting supercar.
pb63 said:
I don't understand why they are investing in the xc75
I firmly believe they are positioning themselves for a return to F1 in 2014 as an engine manufacturer.Those engines are said to be using "extensive hybrid technology" which the CX-75 uses. When those engines were 4 cylinder, the CX-75 was 4 cylinder. Now the F1 engines are V6, well let's see what happens.
sunsurfer said:
It's chicken-or-egg you can have the best product in the world and still fail if the public view of you and your product is not good enough (marketing and PR).
Clearly you do need good product but you also need a good reputation and for that product to be known.
I disagree. It’s not a chicken or egg problem because you always need a (good) product first otherwise what are you marketing/promoting? Reputations aren’t built on fresh air and don’t last forever… Jaguars ‘good’ reputation is a lot to do with what they have achieved in the past – quite a bit in the past….Clearly you do need good product but you also need a good reputation and for that product to be known.
kambites said:
Can you name a production model since the 70s that anyone has made that's had anything like the impact the e-type had?
Exactly....but the company that made it should have at least attempted to build on its success. Yes it would have fallen short probably, but they would have got a lot more credit for trying rather than just saying "Cant" (Callum).And yes there are cars which have had an impact similar to the etype - Countach for one,
Edited by pb63 on Friday 1st July 15:40
kambites said:
Can you name a production model since the 70s that anyone has made that's had anything like the impact the e-type had?
if it is a car that reinvented a segment or created a new trend followed by many, and has been a massive sales success, i would say :renault espace, less glamorous
new mini
, they are everywhere, and the concept of the small expensive luxury city carhas been reused by fiat, citroen, aston, etc... snaelro said:
if it is a car that reinvented a segment or created a new trend followed by many, and has been a massive sales success, i would say :
renault espace, less glamorous
new mini , they are everywhere, and the concept of the small expensive luxury city carhas been reused by fiat, citroen, aston, etc...
MX5? renault espace, less glamorous
new mini
, they are everywhere, and the concept of the small expensive luxury city carhas been reused by fiat, citroen, aston, etc... 
MSTRBKR said:
I firmly believe they are positioning themselves for a return to F1 in 2014 as an engine manufacturer.
Those engines are said to be using "extensive hybrid technology" which the CX-75 uses. When those engines were 4 cylinder, the CX-75 was 4 cylinder. Now the F1 engines are V6, well let's see what happens.
Well at least they would be following the lineage of the xj220 with a v6 then. But I suppose in true jag fashion they would let us down and halve the number of cylinders so that would be 3 then...just like they did from the 12 that was meant to be in the 220. I am a Jag fan believe it or not, but in modern times the company is way too slow to react.Those engines are said to be using "extensive hybrid technology" which the CX-75 uses. When those engines were 4 cylinder, the CX-75 was 4 cylinder. Now the F1 engines are V6, well let's see what happens.
pb63 said:
Countach for one,
Oh wait, I missed the moment in the 80s where everyone who was anyone rushed out and bought a Countach 
The E-Type is Jaguars 'halo' car... something which they will always be remembered for, but trying to replicate or recreate it would just be foolish, as the end product would no doubt miss by a country mile.
Quite a few manufacturers have them...
Porsche with the Original 2.7 Carrera RS
Ford (USA) with the Mustang
Aston Martin with the DB5
Audi with the Quattro
Peugeot and the 205 Gti
BMW E30 M3
...to name but a few.
All of these manufacturers have made many great and wonderful cars since, but none capture the magic and appeal of their 'halo' models. Some have tried, and missed. Take the New TTRS or the 207 Gti as examples... both good cars, but not as magical as the original.
Which is why Jaguar should leave the E-Type be. It was epic. They could not recreate it.
EDIT: I looke forward to brand new models from Jaguar!! None of which will be a spiritual successor to the E-Type.
Edited by minicab on Friday 1st July 15:55
minicab said:
Oh wait, I missed the moment in the 80s where everyone who was anyone rushed out and bought a Countach
The E-Type is Jaguars 'halo' car... something which they will always be remembered for, but trying to replicate or recreate it would just be foolish, as the end product would no doubt miss by a country mile.
Quite a few manufacturers have them...
Porsche with the Original 2.7 Carrera RS
Ford (USA) with the Mustang
Aston Martin with the DB5
Audi with the Quattro
Peugeot and the 205 Gti
BMW E30 M3
...to name but a few.
All of these manufacturers have made many great and wonderful cars since, but none capture the magic and appeal of their 'halo' models. Some have tried, and missed. Take the New TTRS or the 207 Gti as examples... both good cars, but not as magical as the original.
Which is why Jaguar should leave the E-Type be. It was epic. They could not recreate it.
EDIT: I looke forward to brand new models from Jaguar!! None of which will be a spiritual successor to the E-Type.
Er, And in your list, nearly all of those manufactures still produce a model with some homage to that original halo car.The E-Type is Jaguars 'halo' car... something which they will always be remembered for, but trying to replicate or recreate it would just be foolish, as the end product would no doubt miss by a country mile.
Quite a few manufacturers have them...
Porsche with the Original 2.7 Carrera RS
Ford (USA) with the Mustang
Aston Martin with the DB5
Audi with the Quattro
Peugeot and the 205 Gti
BMW E30 M3
...to name but a few.
All of these manufacturers have made many great and wonderful cars since, but none capture the magic and appeal of their 'halo' models. Some have tried, and missed. Take the New TTRS or the 207 Gti as examples... both good cars, but not as magical as the original.
Which is why Jaguar should leave the E-Type be. It was epic. They could not recreate it.
EDIT: I looke forward to brand new models from Jaguar!! None of which will be a spiritual successor to the E-Type.
Edited by minicab on Friday 1st July 15:55
Jaguar should not leave the e type be at all. They should have and still should build on it. Look at the 911 Porsche have been building on since. Worked for them didn't it?
pb63 said:
Er, And in your list, nearly all of those manufactures still produce a model with some homage to that original halo car.
Jaguar should not leave the e type be at all. They should have and still should build on it. Look at the 911 Porsche have been building on since. Worked for them didn't it?
You can't believe how glad I am that Jaguar did not do with the E-Type what Porsche has done with the 911.Jaguar should not leave the e type be at all. They should have and still should build on it. Look at the 911 Porsche have been building on since. Worked for them didn't it?
How many of the current cars on sale match the magic of that 'halo' model then? The biggest mistake that has been made recently was BMW comparing the new 1M to the E30 M3 in my opinion.
kambites said:
So in what way is the XK not a homage to the original halo car? It seems to me to be a direct descendent falling in pretty much the same market.
Have you ever driven an XK and an etype for comparison. If you have then you wouldn't need to ask that question.They are only a descendant in the marketing message. The cars are not really similar.
pb63 said:
kambites said:
So in what way is the XK not a homage to the original halo car? It seems to me to be a direct descendent falling in pretty much the same market.
Have you ever driven an XK or an etype. If you have then you wouldn't need to ask that question.I'd say that the XK is closer in character to the E-type, than the current 911 is to the original.
kambites said:
Yes, both. One is a big heavy old cruiser with impressive handling, the other is a big heavy modern cruiser with impressive handling.
Sounds like you drove a v12 etype...which is not really the cherry of the bunch.Try a series 1. Thats a sports car not a cruiser. The 3.8 more so.
minicab said:
You can't believe how glad I am that Jaguar did not do with the E-Type what Porsche has done with the 911.
How many of the current cars on sale match the magic of that 'halo' model then? The biggest mistake that has been made recently was BMW comparing the new 1M to the E30 M3 in my opinion.
What made a huge success out of it???How many of the current cars on sale match the magic of that 'halo' model then? The biggest mistake that has been made recently was BMW comparing the new 1M to the E30 M3 in my opinion.
At least they are trying, and in trying we get more interesting cars like the 1M which I personally think is a fantastic car. And why not compare it to the E30 M3? That's not a mistake at all. Look at the coverage they are getting and how quickly they are selling it. That's being clever.
I don't understand the idea that you make something great and successful...but then you leave it alone as a memory. A more Japanese approach would be better to strive for continual improvement. Look at the Nissan's GTR for one.
Edited by pb63 on Friday 1st July 16:24
snaelro said:
lots of hype around the brand and its rebirth these last couple of years...a good PR work I think, because if you google "jaguar sales results 2003", it shows that Jag was selling more cars than it does now, even not taking into account the X-type.
the S-type out sold the XF in comparable time of their life. the old XJ was, as the new one, out selling S-class and 7 series together in the UK, but peaking at 1000 units a month in the US, twice as much as the current one...
their profit is due to spending cuts and platform cost (all from previous generations) that are now covered.
yes but 2003 were the boom years for Western economies, you can't really compare in the way you have, interesting as the figures are. For me it sounds very positive and exciting for Jaguar.the S-type out sold the XF in comparable time of their life. the old XJ was, as the new one, out selling S-class and 7 series together in the UK, but peaking at 1000 units a month in the US, twice as much as the current one...
their profit is due to spending cuts and platform cost (all from previous generations) that are now covered.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff