RE: Driven: McLaren MP4-12C

[ANDYCLAX]

Schnellmann said:

ANDYCLAX said:

VO,
silver lightweight wheels,black calipers
blackleather/alcantara/carbon fibre and orange stitching/iris
carbo engine covers but not engine bay
non electric seats and std brakes to save weight and std exhaust because the db on sports is too high for tracking,
And yours?,ps do you post on Mclarenlife?? also if the car was a pp car the knobs were plastic originally!

Nice spec. I have provisionally specced car. Similar except went for Grey (resale of VO would likely be difficult in Switzerland as they are very conservative here). Was still uncertain on carbon fibre interior plus sports' exhaust (dealer trying to persuade me to get it). I liked the stiching but on the test drive found the reflection in the windscreen a bit off-putting. They just dropped the price here in Switzerland to reflect the strength of the Swiss Franc. Makes it quite attractive (around CHF 240k compared to current list price of fully-optioned 997 GTS of CHF 200k). But I don't think I will go ahead with the order. On paper Switzerland is great country for driving as roads are well-maintained, there are some lovely twisty ones and theft and damage is low. But (and it is a big but) they are obsessed about speeding and the penalties are severe (income related fines, long bans plus you get a criminal record for even relatively minor road offences). I think owning the 12c would be either too dangerous for my licence and liberty or it would be too frustrating. And that would spoil the fun of having the car. If I were in the UK I would not hesitate (I know there are problems there with speeding but not to the same extent and at least there are lots of tracks and trackdays). It is annoying.

Yes,i know what you mean!,i have a second home 1km from the swiss border 1hour out of geneva (hope they get a dealership)and i have picked up several tickets in hire cars,thankfully being a johnny foreigner is only a few swiss francs.But looking forward to taking the 12c into the mountain.,As a matter of interest what is the law for foreigners?how fast do You have to be going for it to be serious,ie confiscation of your car?Im not planning on being stupid,as you know in the mountains there are more dangers than the police and i would never cross a white line as i know you would be shot on sight!!!!

[Schnellmann]

ANDYCLAX said:

Yes,i know what you mean!,i have a second home 1km from the swiss border 1hour out of geneva (hope they get a dealership)and i have picked up several tickets in hire cars,thankfully being a johnny foreigner is only a few swiss francs.But looking forward to taking the 12c into the mountain.,As a matter of interest what is the law for foreigners?how fast do You have to be going for it to be serious,ie confiscation of your car?Im not planning on being stupid,as you know in the mountains there are more dangers than the police and i would never cross a white line as i know you would be shot on sight!!!!

Up to 30 kmh over on A/B roads and motorway is just a fine. Anything above would be loss of licence for Swiss residents but I think you would probably still be okay as a non-resident. But might depend upon the policeman stopping you.

A few years back some Hong Kong Chinese found out the hard way about going to fast. They had flown into Italy to pick up their new Ferraris/Lambourghinis (I think there were three or four of them). Their plan was to drive across Europe (Paris or something) and then have the cars shipped back to HK. In Italy the police probably gave them an escort and encouraged them to drive faster. But no-one told them to slow down in Switzerland. I believe they were finally stopped in a road block, frog-marched to prison by gun-totting Swiss police and left to stew. Their lawyers finally got them out and got them home to HK but the cars (now not looking so pristine) are still in a pound in Zurich!

[TVRWannabee]

Schnellmann said:

Nice spec. I have provisionally specced car. Similar except went for Grey (resale of VO would likely be difficult in Switzerland as they are very conservative here). Was still uncertain on carbon fibre interior plus sports' exhaust (dealer trying to persuade me to get it). I liked the stiching but on the test drive found the reflection in the windscreen a bit off-putting. They just dropped the price here in Switzerland to reflect the strength of the Swiss Franc. Makes it quite attractive (around CHF 240k compared to current list price of fully-optioned 997 GTS of CHF 200k). But I don't think I will go ahead with the order. On paper Switzerland is great country for driving as roads are well-maintained, there are some lovely twisty ones and theft and damage is low. But (and it is a big but) they are obsessed about speeding and the penalties are severe (income related fines, long bans plus you get a criminal record for even relatively minor road offences). I think owning the 12c would be either too dangerous for my licence and liberty or it would be too frustrating. And that would spoil the fun of having the car. If I were in the UK I would not hesitate (I know there are problems there with speeding but not to the same extent and at least there are lots of tracks and trackdays). It is annoying.

Yes, Switzerland has that reputation.

Still, buy the McLaren and there would be little stopping you hooning across to join track days in the UK! I'm sure you would be welcome.

[ANDYCLAX]

Schnellmann said:

Up to 30 kmh over on A/B roads and motorway is just a fine. Anything above would be loss of licence for Swiss residents but I think you would probably still be okay as a non-resident. But might depend upon the policeman stopping you.

A few years back some Hong Kong Chinese found out the hard way about going to fast. They had flown into Italy to pick up their new Ferraris/Lambourghinis (I think there were three or four of them). Their plan was to drive across Europe (Paris or something) and then have the cars shipped back to HK. In Italy the police probably gave them an escort and encouraged them to drive faster. But no-one told them to slow down in Switzerland. I believe they were finally stopped in a road block, frog-marched to prison by gun-totting Swiss police and left to stew. Their lawyers finally got them out and got them home to HK but the cars (now not looking so pristine) are still in a pound in Zurich!

Thanks Schnellmann,thats good info,and in the mountain roads around the Dura i think if im 30kph over the limit i might be needing the carbonfibre monocell for more than handling!

[DBSV8]

a lovely looking car , with a truly hideous dash layout ,

what utter idiot thought it a good idea to make the instrument cluster look as though it came out of a 60's mini crossed with a 50s mantle piece clock








truly awfull

[marctwo]

DBSV8 said:

a lovely looking car , with a truly hideous dash layout ,

what utter idiot thought it a good idea to make the instrument cluster look as though it came out of a 60's mini crossed with a 50s mantle piece clock





truly awfull

Because it fills the gap in the steering wheel? I think the McLaren interior is one of the nicest I have seen and certainly a million times better then the button-fest 458.

[DBSV8]

marctwo said:

Because it fills the gap in the steering wheel? I think the McLaren interior is one of the nicest I have seen and certainly a million times better then the button-fest 458.

disagree
compared to the F1 console the MP4 is a huge disapointment

[Pistachio]

DBSV8 said:

marctwo said:

Because it fills the gap in the steering wheel? I think the McLaren interior is one of the nicest I have seen and certainly a million times better then the button-fest 458.

disagree
compared to the F1 console the MP4 is a huge disapointment

Heh DBSV8
you are quite wrong with the humour and fact. The F1 roadcar and the MP4-12C are totally different products with different aims and in different decades.
Also it is correct that the dials are created by the space left by the steering wheel.
To say it is a huge disappointment (with 2 P's) is slightly over reacting.

[DBSV8]

Pistachio said:

Heh DBSV8
you are quite wrong with the humour and fact. The F1 roadcar and the MP4-12C are totally different products with different aims and in different decades.
Also it is correct that the dials are created by the space left by the steering wheel.
To say it is a huge disappointment (with 2 P's) is slightly over reacting.

No its nothing to do with fact , Aesthetically , it just looks plain wrong , pure and simple by Mclarens own admission ," we designed the dials to fit the space available inside the steering wheel" ..

one word , re-design the steering wheel !!

It might be to your cup of tea its certainly not mine , there are some fantastic interiors and dash layouts , I'm afraid this is not one of them

[ANDYCLAX]

DBSV8 said:

Pistachio said:

Heh DBSV8
you are quite wrong with the humour and fact. The F1 roadcar and the MP4-12C are totally different products with different aims and in different decades.
Also it is correct that the dials are created by the space left by the steering wheel.
To say it is a huge disappointment (with 2 P's) is slightly over reacting.

No its nothing to do with fact , Aesthetically , it just looks plain wrong , pure and simple by Mclarens own admission ," we designed the dials to fit the space available inside the steering wheel" ..

one word , re-design the steering wheel !!

It might be to your cup of tea its certainly not mine , there are some fantastic interiors and dash layouts , I'm afraid this is not one of them

I suppose i would disagree,this is a fabulous steering wheel to use in practice,certainly the best ive used and the dash is very user friendly ,if you compare it to an aston dash which is beautiful to look at,but bloody useless to use if you are using the car as it was designed to be used.Thankfully for Mclaren it seems you are in the minority

[AndrewD]

Schnellmann said:

Nice spec. I have provisionally specced car. Similar except went for Grey (resale of VO would likely be difficult in Switzerland as they are very conservative here). Was still uncertain on carbon fibre interior plus sports' exhaust (dealer trying to persuade me to get it). I liked the stiching but on the test drive found the reflection in the windscreen a bit off-putting. They just dropped the price here in Switzerland to reflect the strength of the Swiss Franc. Makes it quite attractive (around CHF 240k compared to current list price of fully-optioned 997 GTS of CHF 200k). But I don't think I will go ahead with the order. On paper Switzerland is great country for driving as roads are well-maintained, there are some lovely twisty ones and theft and damage is low. But (and it is a big but) they are obsessed about speeding and the penalties are severe (income related fines, long bans plus you get a criminal record for even relatively minor road offences). I think owning the 12c would be either too dangerous for my licence and liberty or it would be too frustrating. And that would spoil the fun of having the car. If I were in the UK I would not hesitate (I know there are problems there with speeding but not to the same extent and at least there are lots of tracks and trackdays). It is annoying.

I've owned 5 Lamborghinis and 2 Ferraris in the last 4 years in Switzerland, enjoying all the cars thoroughly, and not a single (yet, touch wood) speeding ticket.

You're not buying because you're worried about speeding tickets - really?

I tested the McL at Schmohl a couple of weeks ago, found it too easy to drive fast and won't be ordering one.

[Schnellmann]

AndrewD said:

I've owned 5 Lamborghinis and 2 Ferraris in the last 4 years in Switzerland, enjoying all the cars thoroughly, and not a single (yet, touch wood) speeding ticket.

You're not buying because you're worried about speeding tickets - really?

I tested the McL at Schmohl a couple of weeks ago, found it too easy to drive fast and won't be ordering one.

Personal experiences have a big impact. we have lived in Switzerland for 12 years. First 4 I drove like I did in the UK. I never had any speeding tickets in the UK. however one Sunday morning I got up really early to drive the mountain passes. went out had great fun and was back home by 10. Did the same for several weekends in a row. One day got a notice saying I had to present my licence. Without knowing it I had gone through some hidden, mobile trap. Was done for 111 kmh in an 80 kmh limit. Fines and costs of around 600 pounds plus a month's ban plus threat that if I reoffended in 5 years I'd be put into the criminal register. What spooked me was that I didn't know I had been caught and obviously didn't see the trap. My driving ability is only average but my observation is usually pretty good. Of course, those were the good old days. Now fines are income related. Some Swedish guy is facing a fine of acquarter of a million pounds for doing 300 kmh in his SLS. That is extreme but doubling the low national limit of 80 kmh takes but a few seconds in the 12c or equivalent and I'm sure that would be a six figure fine plus a long ban plus a criminal record (thereby making us ineligible to become Swiss). so there is much more at stake than acfew speeding tickets!

[zippycar]

DBSV8 said:

one word , re-design the steering wheel !!

Leaving aside that the above is four words, what do you suggest, a square or trianglur steering wheel?

[zippycar]

ANDYCLAX said:

I suppose i would disagree,this is a fabulous steering wheel to use in practice,certainly the best ive used and the dash is very user friendly ,if you compare it to an aston dash which is beautiful to look at,but bloody useless to use if you are using the car as it was designed to be used.Thankfully for Mclaren it seems you are in the minority

Couldn't even see the speedo in my V8 Vantage.

Like Andy says, great to look at, but totally impractical.

Until you have sat in and driven the 12C, which I have been fortunate enough to do, you will never understand just how right it is.

[DBSV8]

zippycar said:

Leaving aside that the above is four words, what do you suggest, a square or trianglur steering wheel?

a austin allegro ....now your talking

[DeltaEvo2]

>>The 458 may have more 'emotion' (read hystrionics), but the McLaren has more class.

Laughable! The Ferrari is sexy the McLaren is bland.

The McLaren is not as fast as the 458 Italia (apart from the Top Gear track where it was developed, nice bit of PR there, 300 million people watching the program is free publicity)
The McLaren is not as pretty as the 458 Italia
The McLaren is not as agile as the 458 Italia
The McLaren's engine is not as good as the 458 Italia
The McLaren's handling is not as good
The McLaren's gearbox is not as good

The Ferrari is McLaren's nightmare.


Look at Tiff's face from 00:08

http://fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/other/ti...

and here:

http://fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/other/ti...

here:

http://fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/other/ja...

here:

Although they do say some bull :"The McLaren the most talked supercar of the century" WTF? LOL!
The Ferrari is "Epic and Mega!", "The McLaren is genuinely disappointing!" their comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=647VDbLOqE0

and here for CARTV the old Stig says the Ferrari is the best, and even the Lambo spider is faster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8EAYPssUzg&fea...

And all the magazines and expert racing drivers say the 458 is the better car.

Edited by DeltaEvo2 on Sunday 28th August 10:04

[GFWilliams]

DeltaEvo2 said:

>>The 458 may have more 'emotion' (read hystrionics), but the McLaren has more class.

Laughable! The Ferrari is sexy the McLaren is bland.

The McLaren is not as fast as the 458 Italia (apart from the Top Gear track where it was developed, nice bit of PR there, 300 million people watching the program is free publicity)
The McLaren is not as pretty as the 458 Italia
The McLaren is not as agile as the 458 Italia
The McLaren's engine is not as good as the 458 Italia
The McLaren's handling is not as good
The McLaren's gearbox is not as good

The Ferrari is McLaren's nightmare.


Look at Tiff's face from 00:08

http://fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/other/ti...

and here:

http://fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/other/ti...

here:

http://fwd.channel5.com/fifth-gear/videos/other/ja...

here:

Although they do say some bull :"The McLaren the most talked supercar of the century" WTF? LOL!
The Ferrari is "Epic and Mega!", "The McLaren is genuinely disappointing!" their comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=647VDbLOqE0

and here for CARTV the old Stig says the Ferrari is the best, and even the Lambo spider is faster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8EAYPssUzg&fea...

And all the magazines and expert racing drivers say the 458 is the better car.

Edited by DeltaEvo2 on Sunday 28th August 10:04

At the end of the day, people buying these kind of cars chose the car which they personally prefer.

Your comment of 'The McLaren is not as pretty as the 458 Italia' is 100% down to personal taste as I 100% disagree and much much prefer the looks of the 12C.

In fact I could probably argue with every point of your argument. For example, 'The McLaren's engine is not as good as the 458 Italia' depends on what you define as good. The 12C has a totally different power delivery to the 458 (which I prefer as it has the effect if giving you more of a kick in the back) and is more efficient.

Agility/handling: When you reach the limits of either car I'd commend you. Both cars handle amazingly and only a racing driver would ever reach the limits of the cars. (no offence if it turns out you are indeed a racing driver, but hopefully you'll see my point)

Gearbox: wow, does the 458 shift 10ms quicker?! Again, I think that they're both pretty amazing and it's not a feature you'd buy the car for.

Things that if I was in a position to buy would sway my decision would be: Overall looks, Interior (458 is definitely 1 down on that!), General drivability, performance on track, price (pretty much the same).

[The Pits]

I don't trust Ferrari's performance figures as far as I can throw them. er if I could throw them...

My first hand experience of owning a Ferrari remains the most disappointing experience I've had with a car.

The test figures at the time were blistering. My car couldn't get anywhere close to them. In fact it was desperately weak performance for the money. It was an F355 that I stupidly bought from new.

It has since been revealed the lengths (depths) ferrari go to to record figures that their production cars can't back up. It's a con I tell you and the 458 is as guilty as any.

I'm not saying it's not a quick car I'm just saying don't believe everything you read in magazines.

Personally I'd choose the McLaren without hesitation over the 458. I'd walk right past the Ferrari showroom without another thought. I think the 458 styling is a fairly poor effort. It just looks like an Enzo with an insectoid front end. And the Enzo never did much for me either. It's certainly no F40.

Not everyone likes the McLaren approach which is more understated and form over function but for me, understated will always be cooler. As will being more modest about having lots of cash than trying to be as flash as possible.

Ferrari is a bit of a cliche.

McLaren is sheer class.

How cool would it be to be able to say 'Let's take the McLaren.'?

Edited by The Pits on Monday 29th August 18:33

[DeltaEvo2]

GFWilliams said:

At the end of the day, people buying these kind of cars chose the car which they personally prefer.

Your comment of 'The McLaren is not as pretty as the 458 Italia' is 100% down to personal taste as I 100% disagree and much much prefer the looks of the 12C.

In fact I could probably argue with every point of your argument. For example, 'The McLaren's engine is not as good as the 458 Italia' depends on what you define as good. The 12C has a totally different power delivery to the 458 (which I prefer as it has the effect if giving you more of a kick in the back) and is more efficient.

Agility/handling: When you reach the limits of either car I'd commend you. Both cars handle amazingly and only a racing driver would ever reach the limits of the cars. (no offence if it turns out you are indeed a racing driver, but hopefully you'll see my point)

Gearbox: wow, does the 458 shift 10ms quicker?! Again, I think that they're both pretty amazing and it's not a feature you'd buy the car for.

Things that if I was in a position to buy would sway my decision would be: Overall looks, Interior (458 is definitely 1 down on that!), General drivability, performance on track, price (pretty much the same).

You got links, I haven't driven the cars.

[GFWilliams]

DeltaEvo2 said:

You got links, I haven't driven the cars.

I haven't driven either, but have had a ride in both and have spoken in depth to people who have driven both (and have both on order).

Hopefully I'll one day get a drive in one, but it's 6 years before I've got a chance of being insured