Nasty Ring accident today at Bergwerk
Discussion
RichardR said:
fatboy18 said:
I'm amazed by how many normal Euro boxes I see driving on the UKs roads with Ring stickers on the back! Ive only ever noticed 2 cars with PH stickers on them in since I joined PH! (not including Hoones and Sunday service runs)
I've got both on my car 
but all my trips driving to and around the 'ring have been with a friend in his TVRs. 
Well at least your honest 
Rollcage said:
She was just driving for effect - giving the passengers a twitchy ride, complete with much tyre squealing and sliding.
Correct. The passengers knew Sabine and requested an "interesting" lap.The video was taped from the 996GT3 of good friend.
Vintage is 2003ish - so way before the current chaos.
Pip1968 said:
More nanny state rubbish. Everyone knows they are on a fast moving toll road where there is a chance of crashing. The conditions of use are written in English right next to where you buy your ringkarte. What more do you want. You do not sign a declaration every time you drive a car do you ????? You are expected to have valid TP insurance and if caught without are punished accordingly.
Why should you have to wear a helmet if you do not want to. You do not have to have a six point harness or airbags or a roll cage but all these things will also protect life and limb.
Everyone over 18 should be free to make their own choices. Those that make the wrong decision sometimes pay for it and hopefully learn for next time.
Pip
Good idea in theory, but it's the lack of a disclaimer that enables people to make personal injury claims, which it the main issue with excluding cover.Why should you have to wear a helmet if you do not want to. You do not have to have a six point harness or airbags or a roll cage but all these things will also protect life and limb.
Everyone over 18 should be free to make their own choices. Those that make the wrong decision sometimes pay for it and hopefully learn for next time.
Pip
There was a crash there last year (i think) where a British M5 dumped it's brake fluid and caused an accident. There was over £250,000 paid out in that claim JUST on the personal injury.
That would not have happened on a 'normal' track, as you sign the disclaimer, and that's the reason insurers are getting fussy over Ring claims.
TF days are now a complete waste of time and money.
I used to go to the 'ring regularly, often every two weeks, back in the early 00's after having spent years doing UK trackdays before heading out there. Back in the day you could do pretty much as many laps as you felt like, the closures were rare. Of course you would come accross the ocasional shunt, but on the whole the track wasnt closed as these were easily managed locally. Traffic levels were sensible, quick drivers knew they were quick and who they could run with at pace safely, the slow guys knew they were slow or inexperienced and drove acordingly, racking up the laps to learn before gaining pace, i felt you would have to be fairly unlucky to get involved in someone elses accident.
I've been twice this year, including this last weekend, and it's just a waste of time now, far too many idiots driving beyond their ability and because they know they may only get a run or two, are pushing things too hard without checking conditions first. I've heard far too many conversations in the car park relating to playstation games and clarksons video/time, the mentality at the place is totally different to when i first went there.
I try and make sure i'm pretty much first on track in the morning, and i'll do a lap at about 70% pace, it's just cruising for a lap to see what state the road is in, where the damp patches are, any repairs or remains of a cleanup operation etc. Once that is done i can then go at a faster pace, knowing where to be extra cautious and where i suspect i'll find things buried in the armco.
Sure enough the second lap there is an M3 burried in the barrier right where the big crash happened later in the day that this thread started with, that section of track was still wet from the night dew, yet the run up to it was bone dry so you could gain a fair bit of speed upto the point where it was sudenly wet, after a blind entry. I then get to eiscurve which is just after the big spectator area, bike is on it's side having gone off on the entry, lights still on but thankfully a marshal on the scene dealing with that one.
I come off track after that lap and do my usual cruise round the local roads to let everything cool down nicely. Get a call from a friend, track now closed, it was far too predictable. The whole weekend went like this, small time open, huge time closed sorting out the mess. I managed 5 laps in 3 days, 4 of those laps were doing an early sighting run then a quicker run straight after before the masses have woken up and saturated the place.
I shan't be bothering with TF days again, it's chaos, there is absolutely no fun driving quickly there when you are expecting to come accross carnage on every lap, knowing people are way over their heads and no one is putting any control on it.
Nurburgring GMBH need to do something about this, i think it's coming to a head now and they will have to act. Even ignoring the ring taxi crash event, it's needed some control bringing in for a while now.
With regards to insurance, i've always had proper cover there, it costs me extra and bumps up my excess for the trip duration, but i have always had piece of mind in that respect.
I used to go to the 'ring regularly, often every two weeks, back in the early 00's after having spent years doing UK trackdays before heading out there. Back in the day you could do pretty much as many laps as you felt like, the closures were rare. Of course you would come accross the ocasional shunt, but on the whole the track wasnt closed as these were easily managed locally. Traffic levels were sensible, quick drivers knew they were quick and who they could run with at pace safely, the slow guys knew they were slow or inexperienced and drove acordingly, racking up the laps to learn before gaining pace, i felt you would have to be fairly unlucky to get involved in someone elses accident.
I've been twice this year, including this last weekend, and it's just a waste of time now, far too many idiots driving beyond their ability and because they know they may only get a run or two, are pushing things too hard without checking conditions first. I've heard far too many conversations in the car park relating to playstation games and clarksons video/time, the mentality at the place is totally different to when i first went there.
I try and make sure i'm pretty much first on track in the morning, and i'll do a lap at about 70% pace, it's just cruising for a lap to see what state the road is in, where the damp patches are, any repairs or remains of a cleanup operation etc. Once that is done i can then go at a faster pace, knowing where to be extra cautious and where i suspect i'll find things buried in the armco.
Sure enough the second lap there is an M3 burried in the barrier right where the big crash happened later in the day that this thread started with, that section of track was still wet from the night dew, yet the run up to it was bone dry so you could gain a fair bit of speed upto the point where it was sudenly wet, after a blind entry. I then get to eiscurve which is just after the big spectator area, bike is on it's side having gone off on the entry, lights still on but thankfully a marshal on the scene dealing with that one.
I come off track after that lap and do my usual cruise round the local roads to let everything cool down nicely. Get a call from a friend, track now closed, it was far too predictable. The whole weekend went like this, small time open, huge time closed sorting out the mess. I managed 5 laps in 3 days, 4 of those laps were doing an early sighting run then a quicker run straight after before the masses have woken up and saturated the place.
I shan't be bothering with TF days again, it's chaos, there is absolutely no fun driving quickly there when you are expecting to come accross carnage on every lap, knowing people are way over their heads and no one is putting any control on it.
Nurburgring GMBH need to do something about this, i think it's coming to a head now and they will have to act. Even ignoring the ring taxi crash event, it's needed some control bringing in for a while now.
With regards to insurance, i've always had proper cover there, it costs me extra and bumps up my excess for the trip duration, but i have always had piece of mind in that respect.
DonkeyApple said:
Bikes do seem to fall into 3 catagories at the Ring.
Those that are ridden well and regardless of whether they are fast or slow will be aware of what is going on around them and also position themselves intelligently on the road.
Good points. As a bike and car driver, with a fair few Ring laps (and crashes) under my belt, the major obstacles for bikers are oil/coolant/gunk and tourists/coaches people slowing down to take pictures. A friend Jorund Seim, known by many ringers in the late 90s and early 2000s was killed when his R1 hit an oil patch. After that I never went back on the Ring on bike. Those that are ridden well and regardless of whether they are fast or slow will be aware of what is going on around them and also position themselves intelligently on the road.
Edited by redback911 on Friday 27th March 15:32
fuchsiasteve said:
Still in Germany as I write this. Done 20 laps of the ring over Friday, Saturday and Sunday morning. It was my first trip (and last on a tourist day!!) Saw three bikers crashed out injured on the Friday/Saturday in seperate accidents.
The worst driving I have ever seen (in over 10 years track daying) was this clown in a ring taxi (on the same stretch of road where this accident happened) earlier on the Sunday morning. A car had broken down, there were hazard lights from a recovery truck so I immediately lifted and hit the hazards and slowed to a safe slow speed. The "taxi" which was really motoring did not lift until he was on top of all of us. Really shocked me until I read this thread.
He did the same to me through Hatzenbach at the scene of a multiple accident. The worst driving I have ever seen (in over 10 years track daying) was this clown in a ring taxi (on the same stretch of road where this accident happened) earlier on the Sunday morning. A car had broken down, there were hazard lights from a recovery truck so I immediately lifted and hit the hazards and slowed to a safe slow speed. The "taxi" which was really motoring did not lift until he was on top of all of us. Really shocked me until I read this thread.
I just knew it was only a matter of time before he did something like this.
redback911 said:
Good points. As a bike and car driver, with a fair few Ring laps (and crashes) under my belt, the major obstacles for bikers are oil/coolant/gunk and tourists/coaches people slowing down to take pictures. A friend Jorund Seim, known by many ringers in the late 90s and early 2000s was killed when his R1 hit an oil patch. After that I never went back on the Ring on bike.
I knew Jorund, he was a great guy and very experienced, we did a few laps together which he posted on his website, one of my westfield cossie turbo and his R1 was quite well known at the time. Sadly one of the risks that is always going to be there is that of mechanical failure impacting on other people, especially bikers, and that can lead to events such as happened to Jorund.After that a lot of the ringers made great efforts to help the officials at the 'ring improve safety, such as writing the safety leaflets and instigating roaming marshalls. It was a worthwhile effort and did improve knowledge and safety.
Mechanical failures and their effect are always going to be there at the 'ring, but the organic failures are where most of the risk is coming from now, which is something that can be brought back under control if the will is there.
johnfelstead said:
TF days are now a complete waste of time and money.
I used to go to the 'ring regularly, often every two weeks, back in the early 00's after having spent years doing UK trackdays before heading out there. Back in the day you could do pretty much as many laps as you felt like, the closures were rare. Of course you would come accross the ocasional shunt, but on the whole the track wasnt closed as these were easily managed locally. Traffic levels were sensible, quick drivers knew they were quick and who they could run with at pace safely, the slow guys knew they were slow or inexperienced and drove acordingly, racking up the laps to learn before gaining pace, i felt you would have to be fairly unlucky to get involved in someone elses accident.
I've been twice this year, including this last weekend, and it's just a waste of time now, far too many idiots driving beyond their ability and because they know they may only get a run or two, are pushing things too hard without checking conditions first. I've heard far too many conversations in the car park relating to playstation games and clarksons video/time, the mentality at the place is totally different to when i first went there.
I try and make sure i'm pretty much first on track in the morning, and i'll do a lap at about 70% pace, it's just cruising for a lap to see what state the road is in, where the damp patches are, any repairs or remains of a cleanup operation etc. Once that is done i can then go at a faster pace, knowing where to be extra cautious and where i suspect i'll find things buried in the armco.
Sure enough the second lap there is an M3 burried in the barrier right where the big crash happened later in the day that this thread started with, that section of track was still wet from the night dew, yet the run up to it was bone dry so you could gain a fair bit of speed upto the point where it was sudenly wet, after a blind entry. I then get to eiscurve which is just after the big spectator area, bike is on it's side having gone off on the entry, lights still on but thankfully a marshal on the scene dealing with that one.
I come off track after that lap and do my usual cruise round the local roads to let everything cool down nicely. Get a call from a friend, track now closed, it was far too predictable. The whole weekend went like this, small time open, huge time closed sorting out the mess. I managed 5 laps in 3 days, 4 of those laps were doing an early sighting run then a quicker run straight after before the masses have woken up and saturated the place.
I shan't be bothering with TF days again, it's chaos, there is absolutely no fun driving quickly there when you are expecting to come accross carnage on every lap, knowing people are way over their heads and no one is putting any control on it.
Nurburgring GMBH need to do something about this, i think it's coming to a head now and they will have to act. Even ignoring the ring taxi crash event, it's needed some control bringing in for a while now.
With regards to insurance, i've always had proper cover there, it costs me extra and bumps up my excess for the trip duration, but i have always had piece of mind in that respect.
That's the personal conclusion I came to a few years ago. All of a sudden, when you turned up the car park was jammed full and the circuit was closed for a lot of the day. It appeared to change almost overnight. Wierdly, I found a similar thing had happened at Le Mans a few years earlier and I suspect that the change was because they were picked up by the media and were actively promoted.I used to go to the 'ring regularly, often every two weeks, back in the early 00's after having spent years doing UK trackdays before heading out there. Back in the day you could do pretty much as many laps as you felt like, the closures were rare. Of course you would come accross the ocasional shunt, but on the whole the track wasnt closed as these were easily managed locally. Traffic levels were sensible, quick drivers knew they were quick and who they could run with at pace safely, the slow guys knew they were slow or inexperienced and drove acordingly, racking up the laps to learn before gaining pace, i felt you would have to be fairly unlucky to get involved in someone elses accident.
I've been twice this year, including this last weekend, and it's just a waste of time now, far too many idiots driving beyond their ability and because they know they may only get a run or two, are pushing things too hard without checking conditions first. I've heard far too many conversations in the car park relating to playstation games and clarksons video/time, the mentality at the place is totally different to when i first went there.
I try and make sure i'm pretty much first on track in the morning, and i'll do a lap at about 70% pace, it's just cruising for a lap to see what state the road is in, where the damp patches are, any repairs or remains of a cleanup operation etc. Once that is done i can then go at a faster pace, knowing where to be extra cautious and where i suspect i'll find things buried in the armco.
Sure enough the second lap there is an M3 burried in the barrier right where the big crash happened later in the day that this thread started with, that section of track was still wet from the night dew, yet the run up to it was bone dry so you could gain a fair bit of speed upto the point where it was sudenly wet, after a blind entry. I then get to eiscurve which is just after the big spectator area, bike is on it's side having gone off on the entry, lights still on but thankfully a marshal on the scene dealing with that one.
I come off track after that lap and do my usual cruise round the local roads to let everything cool down nicely. Get a call from a friend, track now closed, it was far too predictable. The whole weekend went like this, small time open, huge time closed sorting out the mess. I managed 5 laps in 3 days, 4 of those laps were doing an early sighting run then a quicker run straight after before the masses have woken up and saturated the place.
I shan't be bothering with TF days again, it's chaos, there is absolutely no fun driving quickly there when you are expecting to come accross carnage on every lap, knowing people are way over their heads and no one is putting any control on it.
Nurburgring GMBH need to do something about this, i think it's coming to a head now and they will have to act. Even ignoring the ring taxi crash event, it's needed some control bringing in for a while now.
With regards to insurance, i've always had proper cover there, it costs me extra and bumps up my excess for the trip duration, but i have always had piece of mind in that respect.
The first time I went round the Ring, I had had a phone call the day before from Gerry Marshall saying he had a pair of full passes for the OldTimers. I called a mate and at 4am we were in the Griff and heading for Germany.
We arrived and Gerry insisted that he showed me round the Ring as he suspected that I had no real comprehension of what it was. And he was spot on. It was mind blowing. Back then there was very little on the web to research beforehand and with less than a day's notice, no chance to get any books etc.
However, to the point: We're driving round at quite a pace and Gerry is just chatting casually when he pointed and said: 'That's where Lanfranchi went off and wasn't found until the morning'. When I asked for more details it transpired that Gerry and Tony had been down in the 70s for a race and Tony had never driven the circuit before so after the bar closed that night he seemed to think it would be a good idea to get in his car and drive the Ring a few times to get his eye in.
Short story, he came off exiting a corner and went into the trees. He couldn't be arsed to walk all the way back so slept in the car until another vehicle came round in the morning and he flagged a lift.
Gerry also stated that there weren't many circuits that Lanfranchi couldn't drive drunk, so I should take that as a warning!!!!!!
So there has always been silly buggers there.
The first time I went out on my own with my mate as 'spotter', we got half way round before finding 2 corpses in leathers buried into sections of armco.
But it is too busy for me now and I am not a good enough peddaler to make up the shortfall.
redback911 said:
Tourist days are not the only dangerous time at the Ring. Closed days can be just as dangerous, basically any time there is a big differential in speed and driver ability, has the potential for a major accident.
"It was on a closed-track trackday instead of the usual touristenfahrten. The impact happened at the fastest part of the circuit at the end of the longest straight between antoniusbuche and tiergarten. I'm guessing the M3 was doing in the region of 160mph. From what I've read he was an experienced ringer and unfortunately hit the back of the slower moving mini (that can be seen in the background of the pics) after coming over the blind crest. The driver of the M3 got away with only a broken arm!"
Before
After
Did this guy survive?"It was on a closed-track trackday instead of the usual touristenfahrten. The impact happened at the fastest part of the circuit at the end of the longest straight between antoniusbuche and tiergarten. I'm guessing the M3 was doing in the region of 160mph. From what I've read he was an experienced ringer and unfortunately hit the back of the slower moving mini (that can be seen in the background of the pics) after coming over the blind crest. The driver of the M3 got away with only a broken arm!"
Before
After
Edited by redback911 on Tuesday 4th October 18:45
Was he wearing fireproofs?
Considering the discussion on this thread and this video (9:55 then 10:30) perhaps Pistonheads need to alter their sub-headline as the M3 Taxi doesn't look like a victim!
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