Nasty Ring accident today at Bergwerk
Discussion
Pesty said:
Looking again the corvette has stopped in front of the 911 reducing the stopping distance.
Thing is the Ring Taxi driver has no excuse, he should know exactly where the road works are and if that video from earlier in the day is any indication should know to take it slow there as the traffic builds up a lot. And if anything the ring taxi driver could be seen as driving without due care and attention. Sounds like the E92 M3 is what triggered it when it took out the VX220 and the 911 (is it a 993? I never know what the numbers are)Edited by LukeSi on Tuesday 4th October 23:31
No excuse? A blind corner and crest and then standing trafic? its a bit of an excuse in my book. The big sign should have been in front of that corner.
Its a very iunderstandable accident to me, all just my opinion which is worth very little so I will concede to your greater knowledge on the incident.
I'm only surprised that more did not go into the back of that lot.
Its a very iunderstandable accident to me, all just my opinion which is worth very little so I will concede to your greater knowledge on the incident.
I'm only surprised that more did not go into the back of that lot.
Edited by Pesty on Tuesday 4th October 23:37
Pesty said:
No excuse? A blind corner and crest and then standing trafic? its a bit of an excuse in my book.
Its a very iunderstandable accident to me, all just my opinion which is worth very little so I will concede to your greater knowledge on the incident.
I'm only surprised that more did not go into the back of that lot.
Well when a driver who should know the problem areas of the track, and should know where road works which will cause traffic are, then why would they try to go through that area at full pelt rather than taking it easy, if the ring taxi driver had used some common sense he wouldn't have crashed.Its a very iunderstandable accident to me, all just my opinion which is worth very little so I will concede to your greater knowledge on the incident.
I'm only surprised that more did not go into the back of that lot.
There is that word again 'should' you know for a fact he was told? You know for a fact the road works had not moved a few hundred meters since he went around last?
Even if he did its all very easy in hindsight perhaps Ive had too many near misses like this which is why I am not so ready to criticse without knowing exactly but then again Im a s
t driver so you may have a point.
I think a few other cars will have had cameras running so we may see a few different angles. I guess the ring taxis themselves have vids that they then sell the passengers?
Even if he did its all very easy in hindsight perhaps Ive had too many near misses like this which is why I am not so ready to criticse without knowing exactly but then again Im a s
t driver so you may have a point.I think a few other cars will have had cameras running so we may see a few different angles. I guess the ring taxis themselves have vids that they then sell the passengers?
Raify said:
After all the ooh la la's one of them says.
"go past, go past. They're all arriving too fast and can't brake in time.". Then they start to move again, the Vette gets hit and he says. "f-ing hell!". Etc etc "that's really serious."
"go past, go past. They're all arriving too fast and can't brake in time.". Then they start to move again, the Vette gets hit and he says. "f-ing hell!". Etc etc "that's really serious."
youtube comments said:
codriver : oh lalalala...don't go through you're going to damage your tires
driver : I have to move it's too dangerous to stay here. Someone is going to hit my ass
codriver : yeah sure, go ahead  what a strong hit (relative to the crash in front of them)
Then crash at the rear
codriver : oh st, forget for the tyres and move fk it ! fk it !that was really really hard
If that's accurate then the French driver appears to have been the smartest man on track.driver : I have to move it's too dangerous to stay here. Someone is going to hit my ass
codriver : yeah sure, go ahead  what a strong hit (relative to the crash in front of them)
Then crash at the rear
codriver : oh s
t, forget for the tyres and move fk it ! fk it !that was really really hardjohnfelstead said:
It's not worth it any more
DonkeyApple said:
Much the same
Two very good posts summing it up, really. If there are any culprits, for me it's the computer games which make people think they can go there and drive fast, and the desire to beat Clarkson's manufactured lap time. You can't know the place until you can replay a full (real) lap in your head. All of it.It's had it's heyday now. I will be there next weekend but only because we're touring that part of Germany and virtually passing the door, so I shall pop in, but I'm very much in two minds as to whether I will go out or not; depends on time of day, how busy, etc. It's 2.5 years since I was last there now. We'll be in cars; I'm fairly certain that I've done my last bike lap, however much I'd like to think not. I'd only go back out on the bike on a Motorrad session.
The new owners are said to be up their necks in debt and on that basis it's difficult to see how they would can a revenue stream, but if it carries on this way then I'm quite sure that TF will either have to stop, or be radically altered.
Pesty said:
There is that word again 'should' you know for a fact he was told? You know for a fact the road works had not moved a few hundred meters since he went around last?
Even if he did its all very easy in hindsight perhaps Ive had too many near misses like this which is why I am not so ready to criticse without knowing exactly but then again Im a st driver so you may have a point.
I think a few other cars will have had cameras running so we may see a few different angles. I guess the ring taxis themselves have vids that they then sell the passengers?
All in all though it is the fault of the management. If the repairs needed doing that urgently they should have closed the track until they were completed, they are lucky no one was killed because of it.Even if he did its all very easy in hindsight perhaps Ive had too many near misses like this which is why I am not so ready to criticse without knowing exactly but then again Im a s
t driver so you may have a point.I think a few other cars will have had cameras running so we may see a few different angles. I guess the ring taxis themselves have vids that they then sell the passengers?
johnfelstead said:
TF days are now a complete waste of time and money.
and some other good points
Agreed- you've expressed almost exactly how I feel about the place these days.and some other good points
I'm starting to feel like a stereotypical old fart but seriously 'it was better in my day'. I almost feel sorry for people going there these days- other than the fact although I won't bother driving there anymore I'd still happily drink a Franziskaner or two while spectating........
Well I'm an even bigger spack then I'd previously thought because from that rear facing camera video I can't see what happened.
I'm sure the taxi driver will be in the plop if (as you guys seem to believe) they were (the most) to blame.
Having never been there and with little knowledge of the management of the place I can't help but think that it must be a panel beater's paradise with that number of drivers all keen to drive at pretty high speed, few of whom will honestly be driving with enough distance to stop within their horizon.
I'm sure the taxi driver will be in the plop if (as you guys seem to believe) they were (the most) to blame.
Having never been there and with little knowledge of the management of the place I can't help but think that it must be a panel beater's paradise with that number of drivers all keen to drive at pretty high speed, few of whom will honestly be driving with enough distance to stop within their horizon.
Dan7357 said:
Dan7357 said:
Sorry, from 10.00 minsIntresting to see that Frenchy seems to be cracking on and yet stops with plenty of time to spare.
Edited by 1 on Tuesday 4th October 23:57
LukeSi said:
All in all though it is the fault of the management. If the repairs needed doing that urgently they should have closed the track until they were completed, they are lucky no one was killed because of it.
I agree and I am not ruling out the possibilty that the ring driver had some fault himself you may be right.It does seem to me to have been an entirley avoidable incident if there was more advanced warning.
Blaming it on computer games and clarkson seems a bit over simplistic and overriding.
There is lots of dangerous, careless and reckless behaviour, yes, from people from all over the world, not all of whom even know or care who Clarkson is. And saying its computer games fault is a bit like saying street violence is the fault of violent games. But there are also simple errors and miss judgement, which is part and parcel of learning to drive fast on a track you don't know.
People spin off and make mistakes on track days all the time, but with run offs and sand traps, they often get of lightly. And where there is visability and or marshals, other drivers can avoid getting caught up.
You can be driving quite within your limits on that track and hit a bit of water with some oil or tree sap and loose traction in the most unlikley places. If someone is right up your backside, next thing you know, there is contact. If that is on a blind corner, then a few more pile in and you have a major incident on your hands.
There is lots of dangerous, careless and reckless behaviour, yes, from people from all over the world, not all of whom even know or care who Clarkson is. And saying its computer games fault is a bit like saying street violence is the fault of violent games. But there are also simple errors and miss judgement, which is part and parcel of learning to drive fast on a track you don't know.
People spin off and make mistakes on track days all the time, but with run offs and sand traps, they often get of lightly. And where there is visability and or marshals, other drivers can avoid getting caught up.
You can be driving quite within your limits on that track and hit a bit of water with some oil or tree sap and loose traction in the most unlikley places. If someone is right up your backside, next thing you know, there is contact. If that is on a blind corner, then a few more pile in and you have a major incident on your hands.
That is the most stupidest piece of roadwork warning sign ever. I'm sorry, but that's a very quick unsighted section and they stick a sign up just before the works and halfway through the very fast section. Why is the sign not up after the corner before the quick left handers? It's just waiting to happen and even more so when there becomes a actual road block of crashed cars and people trying to break and get round.
I'm speechless.
I'm speechless.
Handbrake - I think you're off the mark with your likening it to the 'violent games produce violence' nonsense (a claim incidentally which has never been seen, with experiments to support the opposite.) No, I'd say that there is a great deal of overconfidence caused by ppl xboxing it up round NSchleife. Having said that, I've never been there, but can imagine, despite the corners being in the same place, the conditions being v. different. But if I realise that, surely others can too? Or does exuberance get in the way?
C8PPO said:
Two very good posts summing it up, really. If there are any culprits, for me it's the computer games which make people think they can go there and drive fast, and the desire to beat Clarkson's manufactured lap time. You can't know the place until you can replay a full (real) lap in your head. All of it.
The new owners are said to be up their necks in debt and on that basis it's difficult to see how they would can a revenue stream, but if it carries on this way then I'm quite sure that TF will either have to stop, or be radically altered.
I can't comment on whether games or Clarkson have any involvement here, but it wouldn't surprise me. I'm often concerned at many motoring events when mature youths talk about Clarkson in a manner that suggests they don't understand that he is simply an entertainer and entertainment isn't often allied to fact.The new owners are said to be up their necks in debt and on that basis it's difficult to see how they would can a revenue stream, but if it carries on this way then I'm quite sure that TF will either have to stop, or be radically altered.
If I were to think about it, I would suspect that also something that may be at play is also just a lack of wisdom and experience amongst the people going.
When I started going I was noticebly younger than the vast majority and as the numbers were smaller we spoke more and people would warn of wet areas etc.
I also had the impression that everyone had done track days in the UK and had brought that experience with them.
The last few times I went the car parks were rammed with an enormous number of youngsters and I wonder if it could be a case that many have not experienced track days etc.
You raise a very interesting point re corporate debt. One has to ask the question as to whether the company could be turning a willing blind eye in fear of revenue loss. Not sure. I don't know what relevent income TF days deliver.
It's a great place, truly great but one does wonder whether a couple of simple changes could make it safer and still the amazing experience that it is going forward. Maybe batching certain types of rider/driver/vehicle on hourly basis so there is an attempt at less of a disparity on the track.
Certainly, looking at this current incident the maintenance staff require additional safety training and the taxi driver either failed to do his job and be aware of where the works were taking place or chose to willfully ignore this. Either way, it looks as if there was a manifest error, the type which should see someone leaving the company.
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