Nasty Ring accident today at Bergwerk
Discussion
Tonsko said:
Handbrake - I think you're off the mark with your likening it to the 'violent games produce violence' nonsense (a claim incidentally which has never been seen, with experiments to support the opposite.) No, I'd say that there is a great deal of overconfidence caused by ppl xboxing it up round NSchleife. Having said that, I've never been there, but can imagine, despite the corners being in the same place, the conditions being v. different. But if I realise that, surely others can too? Or does exuberance get in the way?
What I said was if you read it, that this is not the only cause as some commentators suggest, its not that simple and a bit ignorant to suggest. And the analogy about games and violence is that, of course it could be a contributing factor but its not the sole one and only to highlight my point. You could just as easily argue that all manufacturers now using the Nordschleife to tune their cars and to set benchmarks over their performance. What serious sports car these days does not go for a new records on the ring or post its times?
What serious motoring journalists apart form Clarkson the entertainer does not make regular references to a cars performance on the Nordschleife testing as a way of describing its ability against the benchmarks of other cars. I could go onto this website among many, many others and countless magazines to show you evidence of this.
The cult and widespread interest in the ring is more than just games and Clarkson. And I'd also suggest the constant focus on timing by the automotive and media industries contribute. Like its a competition and forgetting safety comes first, followed after by fun. Lovejoy's website puts this nicely:
Focusing on lap-times is a particular danger. Here's what former Ring instructor Jon Taylor has to say on the subject:
I stopped timing myself back in about '92 after a few scares. Now I only get the time if someone tells me it, I don't actually try for it. I go for smoothness and having fun. I push myself as far as I'm happy and no more.
I have seen too many deaths (one of them a very good friend of mine) and crippling injuries there. One of our instructors has crashed so many times I've lost count, and he is forever telling us his times, so I have my suspicions the two are connected. Had a doctor not been one of the next people round when he lost it at Pflanzgarten II he says he would have lost his leg! It is an unforgiving track and when you find that out it's too late.
There will always be someone quicker than you out there at some time. I measure myself against others mentally to see if I'm improving or not, but just upping the speed bit by bit will eventually IMHO lead to disaster. I think you're dead right with the smoothness bit, even Helmut Daehne says in his 'Ring video smooth large radius bends are the way to the best laps. You know in yourself when you've got everything dead right, it's just magic, and gives you (me) a high every time even after 13 years, 9 of which instructing. It's what keeps me coming back year after year. © Jon Taylor
One chap I met that crashed there had raced there for years, knows the track inside out and was in his words, taking it easy because of conditions. The ring taxi guys, errr, did not learn on a computer and is pretty experienced. There could well be people out there being dagerous and / or careless as a result of over confidence from computer games and / or encouragement from entertains. But people are using incidental and anecdotal evidence as fact, which it isn't. Like they heard too many people talking about it in the car park. Not, that several people that caused accidents were all inexperienced numpties that fit this profile.
I'd like to see bikes and cars not mixed in together. Really dangerous for both as far as I am concerned.
Fewer cars spread out over longer distances. Pile ups happen on the crests and blind corners when people UN-knowingly barrel around corners into stationary cars.
Proper warning and marshaling would help this no end too.
The accident on this thread was at Bergwerk is a well known accident hot spot. Niki Lauda famously crashed here.
Edited by handbraketurn on Wednesday 5th October 02:36
Edited by handbraketurn on Wednesday 5th October 02:39
handbraketurn said:
The accident on this thread was at Bergwerk is a well known accident hot spot. Niki Lauda famously crashed here.
No he didn't.Interesting stuff coming up in the German media about illegal financing of the Nürburgring by the local government:
http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/ve...
Seek said:
No he didn't.
Interesting stuff coming up in the German media about illegal financing of the Nürburgring by the local government:
http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/ve...
He crashed on the corner just before Bergwerk didn't he - ie the Bergwerk section?Interesting stuff coming up in the German media about illegal financing of the Nürburgring by the local government:
http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/ve...
Bugeyeandy said:
He crashed on the corner just before Bergwerk didn't he - ie the Bergwerk section?
Lauda crashed at succinctly named Lauda-Links - or as the locals call it - Barbeque Bend.That's the fast left a few hundred yards before Bergwerk.
The accident above didn't happen at Bergwerk itself but a few corners and several hundred yards after - basically Kesselchen 1.
Just wanted to chime in re: learning the track via GT5. Yes GT5 provides an excellent reconstruction of the track but its no substitute for learning the lines of the Ring via actual laps. A major factor in people crashing at the Ring is caused by drivers being lost and thinking they are somewhere they are not. Also, as soon as it gets damp or wet the lines change at a number of corners.
Its sad to see so much negative news regarding the Ring recently. The new owners need to take some responsibility for how they operate it now.
Its sad to see so much negative news regarding the Ring recently. The new owners need to take some responsibility for how they operate it now.
redback911 said:
Just wanted to chime in re: learning the track via GT5. Yes GT5 provides an excellent reconstruction of the track but its no substitute for learning the lines of the Ring via actual laps. A major factor in people crashing at the Ring is caused by drivers being lost and thinking they are somewhere they are not. Also, as soon as it gets damp or wet the lines change at a number of corners.
Exactly the reason I didn't do any laps on the Xbox first, because I didn't want to think I knew where I was.Got home, done some then.. Felt very different on the Xbox.
handbraketurn said:
Tonsko said:
Handbrake - I think you're off the mark with your likening it to the 'violent games produce violence' nonsense (a claim incidentally which has never been seen, with experiments to support the opposite.) No, I'd say that there is a great deal of overconfidence caused by ppl xboxing it up round NSchleife. Having said that, I've never been there, but can imagine, despite the corners being in the same place, the conditions being v. different. But if I realise that, surely others can too? Or does exuberance get in the way?
What I said was if you read it, that this is not the only cause as some commentators suggest, its not that simple and a bit ignorant to suggest. And the analogy about games and violence is that, of course it could be a contributing factor but its not the sole one and only to highlight my point. You could just as easily argue that all manufacturers now using the Nordschleife to tune their cars and to set benchmarks over their performance. What serious sports car these days does not go for a new records on the ring or post its times?
What serious motoring journalists apart form Clarkson the entertainer does not make regular references to a cars performance on the Nordschleife testing as a way of describing its ability against the benchmarks of other cars. I could go onto this website among many, many others and countless magazines to show you evidence of this.
The cult and widespread interest in the ring is more than just games and Clarkson. And I'd also suggest the constant focus on timing by the automotive and media industries contribute. Like its a competition and forgetting safety comes first, followed after by fun. Lovejoy's website puts this nicely:
Focusing on lap-times is a particular danger. Here's what former Ring instructor Jon Taylor has to say on the subject:
I stopped timing myself back in about '92 after a few scares. Now I only get the time if someone tells me it, I don't actually try for it. I go for smoothness and having fun. I push myself as far as I'm happy and no more.
I have seen too many deaths (one of them a very good friend of mine) and crippling injuries there. One of our instructors has crashed so many times I've lost count, and he is forever telling us his times, so I have my suspicions the two are connected. Had a doctor not been one of the next people round when he lost it at Pflanzgarten II he says he would have lost his leg! It is an unforgiving track and when you find that out it's too late.
There will always be someone quicker than you out there at some time. I measure myself against others mentally to see if I'm improving or not, but just upping the speed bit by bit will eventually IMHO lead to disaster. I think you're dead right with the smoothness bit, even Helmut Daehne says in his 'Ring video smooth large radius bends are the way to the best laps. You know in yourself when you've got everything dead right, it's just magic, and gives you (me) a high every time even after 13 years, 9 of which instructing. It's what keeps me coming back year after year. © Jon Taylor
One chap I met that crashed there had raced there for years, knows the track inside out and was in his words, taking it easy because of conditions. The ring taxi guys, errr, did not learn on a computer and is pretty experienced. There could well be people out there being dagerous and / or careless as a result of over confidence from computer games and / or encouragement from entertains. But people are using incidental and anecdotal evidence as fact, which it isn't. Like they heard too many people talking about it in the car park. Not, that several people that caused accidents were all inexperienced numpties that fit this profile.
I'd like to see bikes and cars not mixed in together. Really dangerous for both as far as I am concerned.
Fewer cars spread out over longer distances. Pile ups happen on the crests and blind corners when people UN-knowingly barrel around corners into stationary cars.
Proper warning and marshaling would help this no end too.
The accident on this thread was at Bergwerk is a well known accident hot spot. Niki Lauda famously crashed here.
Edited by handbraketurn on Wednesday 5th October 02:36
Edited by handbraketurn on Wednesday 5th October 02:39
JonnyFive said:
Exactly the reason I didn't do any laps on the Xbox first, because I didn't want to think I knew where I was.
Got home, done some then.. Felt very different on the Xbox.
First time I went there it was snowing all weekend, but they kept it open. A nice, slow and empty way to learn the track Got home, done some then.. Felt very different on the Xbox.
johnfelstead said:
TF days are now a complete waste of time and money.
I used to go to the 'ring regularly, often every two weeks, back in the early 00's after having spent years doing UK trackdays before heading out there. Back in the day you could do pretty much as many laps as you felt like, the closures were rare. Of course you would come accross the ocasional shunt, but on the whole the track wasnt closed as these were easily managed locally. Traffic levels were sensible, quick drivers knew they were quick and who they could run with at pace safely, the slow guys knew they were slow or inexperienced and drove acordingly, racking up the laps to learn before gaining pace, i felt you would have to be fairly unlucky to get involved in someone elses accident.
I've been twice this year, including this last weekend, and it's just a waste of time now, far too many idiots driving beyond their ability and because they know they may only get a run or two, are pushing things too hard without checking conditions first. I've heard far too many conversations in the car park relating to playstation games and clarksons video/time, the mentality at the place is totally different to when i first went there.
I try and make sure i'm pretty much first on track in the morning, and i'll do a lap at about 70% pace, it's just cruising for a lap to see what state the road is in, where the damp patches are, any repairs or remains of a cleanup operation etc. Once that is done i can then go at a faster pace, knowing where to be extra cautious and where i suspect i'll find things buried in the armco.
Sure enough the second lap there is an M3 burried in the barrier right where the big crash happened later in the day that this thread started with, that section of track was still wet from the night dew, yet the run up to it was bone dry so you could gain a fair bit of speed upto the point where it was sudenly wet, after a blind entry. I then get to eiscurve which is just after the big spectator area, bike is on it's side having gone off on the entry, lights still on but thankfully a marshal on the scene dealing with that one.
I come off track after that lap and do my usual cruise round the local roads to let everything cool down nicely. Get a call from a friend, track now closed, it was far too predictable. The whole weekend went like this, small time open, huge time closed sorting out the mess. I managed 5 laps in 3 days, 4 of those laps were doing an early sighting run then a quicker run straight after before the masses have woken up and saturated the place.
I shan't be bothering with TF days again, it's chaos, there is absolutely no fun driving quickly there when you are expecting to come accross carnage on every lap, knowing people are way over their heads and no one is putting any control on it.
Nurburgring GMBH need to do something about this, i think it's coming to a head now and they will have to act. Even ignoring the ring taxi crash event, it's needed some control bringing in for a while now.
With regards to insurance, i've always had proper cover there, it costs me extra and bumps up my excess for the trip duration, but i have always had piece of mind in that respect.
+1I used to go to the 'ring regularly, often every two weeks, back in the early 00's after having spent years doing UK trackdays before heading out there. Back in the day you could do pretty much as many laps as you felt like, the closures were rare. Of course you would come accross the ocasional shunt, but on the whole the track wasnt closed as these were easily managed locally. Traffic levels were sensible, quick drivers knew they were quick and who they could run with at pace safely, the slow guys knew they were slow or inexperienced and drove acordingly, racking up the laps to learn before gaining pace, i felt you would have to be fairly unlucky to get involved in someone elses accident.
I've been twice this year, including this last weekend, and it's just a waste of time now, far too many idiots driving beyond their ability and because they know they may only get a run or two, are pushing things too hard without checking conditions first. I've heard far too many conversations in the car park relating to playstation games and clarksons video/time, the mentality at the place is totally different to when i first went there.
I try and make sure i'm pretty much first on track in the morning, and i'll do a lap at about 70% pace, it's just cruising for a lap to see what state the road is in, where the damp patches are, any repairs or remains of a cleanup operation etc. Once that is done i can then go at a faster pace, knowing where to be extra cautious and where i suspect i'll find things buried in the armco.
Sure enough the second lap there is an M3 burried in the barrier right where the big crash happened later in the day that this thread started with, that section of track was still wet from the night dew, yet the run up to it was bone dry so you could gain a fair bit of speed upto the point where it was sudenly wet, after a blind entry. I then get to eiscurve which is just after the big spectator area, bike is on it's side having gone off on the entry, lights still on but thankfully a marshal on the scene dealing with that one.
I come off track after that lap and do my usual cruise round the local roads to let everything cool down nicely. Get a call from a friend, track now closed, it was far too predictable. The whole weekend went like this, small time open, huge time closed sorting out the mess. I managed 5 laps in 3 days, 4 of those laps were doing an early sighting run then a quicker run straight after before the masses have woken up and saturated the place.
I shan't be bothering with TF days again, it's chaos, there is absolutely no fun driving quickly there when you are expecting to come accross carnage on every lap, knowing people are way over their heads and no one is putting any control on it.
Nurburgring GMBH need to do something about this, i think it's coming to a head now and they will have to act. Even ignoring the ring taxi crash event, it's needed some control bringing in for a while now.
With regards to insurance, i've always had proper cover there, it costs me extra and bumps up my excess for the trip duration, but i have always had piece of mind in that respect.
Went last october, same thing happened to me. 8 laps in 3 days. On my last lap I counted 8 separate incidents either still happening or being cleared up. I went in 2005 and 2006 a few times and it was going this way, but even I was shocked. Made me think seriously whether to bother going back.
Interesting comments re: Forza/GT5 etc.
I first went in 2009 with 2 friends. None of us knew anything about the track, and as a result we were probably the slowest people there on the day (in an e46 M3!). Because we weren't sure of the layout, we were braking at stupid times with people flying past us. The bits of this I remember were braking for pretty much every corner from Berkwerk up to the Karussel, despite still taking it easy between the corners, and most memorable was the guy who owned the M3 doing a lawnmower impression at Adenauer Forst. We did 6 laps between us that weekend.
Cue a whole year of annoying the wife by playing Forza instead of talking to her. We went back in 2010 in my 330ci and the difference was noticable. We all fully admitted that we still had no idea of the correct lines, or how fast to take each corner, but what we did know the layout reasonably well. This meant no more straight-lining at AF, and a bit more speed up Kesselchen. It also meant that if we got stuck behind someone slower we knew if a suitable safe overtaking spot was coming up so we didn't feel pressured to go past in a potentially dodgy location.
We still took it easy - we're novices after all. One of my passengers timed one of my laps on his phone (telling my time only when we were back in the car park). 11:20! That goes to show how I was driving it. My favourite laps were in the rain, when the lap time chasers decided to sit it out. A nice clear track, driven to the conditions made for a big smile on my face.
I suppose what helps is that I haven't got the ego that most people there seem to have. I genuinely don't care if people are quicker than me, or if I ever beat the 10 minute Clarkson time (as everyone asked me when I got back). I'm going back in April next year and am planning to drive it in the same way - i.e. with one eye on the mirror, one finger ready on the indicator and a light touch on the throttle
So, I found the Xbox very useful, but I was very aware of what I could and couldn't learn from it. If you go there thinking you know it all just from playing a game, you're in trouble!
I first went in 2009 with 2 friends. None of us knew anything about the track, and as a result we were probably the slowest people there on the day (in an e46 M3!). Because we weren't sure of the layout, we were braking at stupid times with people flying past us. The bits of this I remember were braking for pretty much every corner from Berkwerk up to the Karussel, despite still taking it easy between the corners, and most memorable was the guy who owned the M3 doing a lawnmower impression at Adenauer Forst. We did 6 laps between us that weekend.
Cue a whole year of annoying the wife by playing Forza instead of talking to her. We went back in 2010 in my 330ci and the difference was noticable. We all fully admitted that we still had no idea of the correct lines, or how fast to take each corner, but what we did know the layout reasonably well. This meant no more straight-lining at AF, and a bit more speed up Kesselchen. It also meant that if we got stuck behind someone slower we knew if a suitable safe overtaking spot was coming up so we didn't feel pressured to go past in a potentially dodgy location.
We still took it easy - we're novices after all. One of my passengers timed one of my laps on his phone (telling my time only when we were back in the car park). 11:20! That goes to show how I was driving it. My favourite laps were in the rain, when the lap time chasers decided to sit it out. A nice clear track, driven to the conditions made for a big smile on my face.
I suppose what helps is that I haven't got the ego that most people there seem to have. I genuinely don't care if people are quicker than me, or if I ever beat the 10 minute Clarkson time (as everyone asked me when I got back). I'm going back in April next year and am planning to drive it in the same way - i.e. with one eye on the mirror, one finger ready on the indicator and a light touch on the throttle
So, I found the Xbox very useful, but I was very aware of what I could and couldn't learn from it. If you go there thinking you know it all just from playing a game, you're in trouble!
mk1matt said:
Interesting comments re: Forza/GT5 etc.
I first went in 2009 with 2 friends. None of us knew anything about the track, and as a result we were probably the slowest people there on the day (in an e46 M3!). Because we weren't sure of the layout, we were braking at stupid times with people flying past us. The bits of this I remember were braking for pretty much every corner from Berkwerk up to the Karussel, despite still taking it easy between the corners, and most memorable was the guy who owned the M3 doing a lawnmower impression at Adenauer Forst. We did 6 laps between us that weekend.
Cue a whole year of annoying the wife by playing Forza instead of talking to her. We went back in 2010 in my 330ci and the difference was noticable. We all fully admitted that we still had no idea of the correct lines, or how fast to take each corner, but what we did know the layout reasonably well. This meant no more straight-lining at AF, and a bit more speed up Kesselchen. It also meant that if we got stuck behind someone slower we knew if a suitable safe overtaking spot was coming up so we didn't feel pressured to go past in a potentially dodgy location.
We still took it easy - we're novices after all. One of my passengers timed one of my laps on his phone (telling my time only when we were back in the car park). 11:20! That goes to show how I was driving it. My favourite laps were in the rain, when the lap time chasers decided to sit it out. A nice clear track, driven to the conditions made for a big smile on my face.
I suppose what helps is that I haven't got the ego that most people there seem to have. I genuinely don't care if people are quicker than me, or if I ever beat the 10 minute Clarkson time (as everyone asked me when I got back). I'm going back in April next year and am planning to drive it in the same way - i.e. with one eye on the mirror, one finger ready on the indicator and a light touch on the throttle
So, I found the Xbox very useful, but I was very aware of what I could and couldn't learn from it. If you go there thinking you know it all just from playing a game, you're in trouble!
Spot on!I first went in 2009 with 2 friends. None of us knew anything about the track, and as a result we were probably the slowest people there on the day (in an e46 M3!). Because we weren't sure of the layout, we were braking at stupid times with people flying past us. The bits of this I remember were braking for pretty much every corner from Berkwerk up to the Karussel, despite still taking it easy between the corners, and most memorable was the guy who owned the M3 doing a lawnmower impression at Adenauer Forst. We did 6 laps between us that weekend.
Cue a whole year of annoying the wife by playing Forza instead of talking to her. We went back in 2010 in my 330ci and the difference was noticable. We all fully admitted that we still had no idea of the correct lines, or how fast to take each corner, but what we did know the layout reasonably well. This meant no more straight-lining at AF, and a bit more speed up Kesselchen. It also meant that if we got stuck behind someone slower we knew if a suitable safe overtaking spot was coming up so we didn't feel pressured to go past in a potentially dodgy location.
We still took it easy - we're novices after all. One of my passengers timed one of my laps on his phone (telling my time only when we were back in the car park). 11:20! That goes to show how I was driving it. My favourite laps were in the rain, when the lap time chasers decided to sit it out. A nice clear track, driven to the conditions made for a big smile on my face.
I suppose what helps is that I haven't got the ego that most people there seem to have. I genuinely don't care if people are quicker than me, or if I ever beat the 10 minute Clarkson time (as everyone asked me when I got back). I'm going back in April next year and am planning to drive it in the same way - i.e. with one eye on the mirror, one finger ready on the indicator and a light touch on the throttle
So, I found the Xbox very useful, but I was very aware of what I could and couldn't learn from it. If you go there thinking you know it all just from playing a game, you're in trouble!
Couldn't agree more.
We have stopped doing TF Days now and started doing dedicated track days like Destination Nurburgring IMO you can learn so, so much more, go a lot quicker but drive a lot smoother, your there for 2 Days, continuous laps plus your covered for insurance (Destination Nurburgring anyway)
Tyre Smoke said:
mk1matt said:
Interesting comments re: Forza/GT5 etc.
I first went in 2009 with 2 friends. None of us knew anything about the track, and as a result we were probably the slowest people there on the day (in an e46 M3!). Because we weren't sure of the layout, we were braking at stupid times with people flying past us. The bits of this I remember were braking for pretty much every corner from Berkwerk up to the Karussel, despite still taking it easy between the corners, and most memorable was the guy who owned the M3 doing a lawnmower impression at Adenauer Forst. We did 6 laps between us that weekend.
Cue a whole year of annoying the wife by playing Forza instead of talking to her. We went back in 2010 in my 330ci and the difference was noticable. We all fully admitted that we still had no idea of the correct lines, or how fast to take each corner, but what we did know the layout reasonably well. This meant no more straight-lining at AF, and a bit more speed up Kesselchen. It also meant that if we got stuck behind someone slower we knew if a suitable safe overtaking spot was coming up so we didn't feel pressured to go past in a potentially dodgy location.
We still took it easy - we're novices after all. One of my passengers timed one of my laps on his phone (telling my time only when we were back in the car park). 11:20! That goes to show how I was driving it. My favourite laps were in the rain, when the lap time chasers decided to sit it out. A nice clear track, driven to the conditions made for a big smile on my face.
I suppose what helps is that I haven't got the ego that most people there seem to have. I genuinely don't care if people are quicker than me, or if I ever beat the 10 minute Clarkson time (as everyone asked me when I got back). I'm going back in April next year and am planning to drive it in the same way - i.e. with one eye on the mirror, one finger ready on the indicator and a light touch on the throttle
So, I found the Xbox very useful, but I was very aware of what I could and couldn't learn from it. If you go there thinking you know it all just from playing a game, you're in trouble!
Spot on!I first went in 2009 with 2 friends. None of us knew anything about the track, and as a result we were probably the slowest people there on the day (in an e46 M3!). Because we weren't sure of the layout, we were braking at stupid times with people flying past us. The bits of this I remember were braking for pretty much every corner from Berkwerk up to the Karussel, despite still taking it easy between the corners, and most memorable was the guy who owned the M3 doing a lawnmower impression at Adenauer Forst. We did 6 laps between us that weekend.
Cue a whole year of annoying the wife by playing Forza instead of talking to her. We went back in 2010 in my 330ci and the difference was noticable. We all fully admitted that we still had no idea of the correct lines, or how fast to take each corner, but what we did know the layout reasonably well. This meant no more straight-lining at AF, and a bit more speed up Kesselchen. It also meant that if we got stuck behind someone slower we knew if a suitable safe overtaking spot was coming up so we didn't feel pressured to go past in a potentially dodgy location.
We still took it easy - we're novices after all. One of my passengers timed one of my laps on his phone (telling my time only when we were back in the car park). 11:20! That goes to show how I was driving it. My favourite laps were in the rain, when the lap time chasers decided to sit it out. A nice clear track, driven to the conditions made for a big smile on my face.
I suppose what helps is that I haven't got the ego that most people there seem to have. I genuinely don't care if people are quicker than me, or if I ever beat the 10 minute Clarkson time (as everyone asked me when I got back). I'm going back in April next year and am planning to drive it in the same way - i.e. with one eye on the mirror, one finger ready on the indicator and a light touch on the throttle
So, I found the Xbox very useful, but I was very aware of what I could and couldn't learn from it. If you go there thinking you know it all just from playing a game, you're in trouble!
Couldn't agree more.
have to laugh at all the comment's about new and careless drivers coming from computer ganmes when it was the ring taxi driver who f
ked up the most...he's probably been around 10 times that of any of the drivers on here...it's a dangerous place, the faster you go the more dangerous it is regardless of talent.
ked up the most...he's probably been around 10 times that of any of the drivers on here...it's a dangerous place, the faster you go the more dangerous it is regardless of talent.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff