RE: We Want To Build A Car Says BMW M Boss
Discussion
BuzzLightyear said:
It's a sad fact that supercars are becoming more and more irrelevant to more and more people these days.
Unfortunately, the purchase and ownership costs of this sort of car are beyond the great majority of us and this will only increase with social and economic pressure.
I suppose there will always be some who can and will afford them but for the rest of us even aspiring to owning a second- or third-hand example will become harder to manage (and justify?) and this will also, in turn, reduce the market for new supercars.
Even today, how many large petrol engined cars are being bought compared to more economical diesels? An ever decreasing proportion, I'm afraid.
It is a great shame that one of our most loved and enjoyed expressions of individuality is being squeezed out like this and I don't think an electric motor with a sound-box playing a decent engine / exhaust note is good enough substitute.
We can only hope that the real enthusiasts - like the M Division - can find a way of giving us the fun and enjoyment of driving in a package which makes economic and environmental sense.
it hurt me to say that! 
Pretty sure there are more supercars being sold now than ever before...companies like Ferrari , Lamborghini and Porches are now assembly line manufactures...the global market has exploded for these cars.. Middle east, China, Russia..supercars are selling at huge prices in huge numbersUnfortunately, the purchase and ownership costs of this sort of car are beyond the great majority of us and this will only increase with social and economic pressure.
I suppose there will always be some who can and will afford them but for the rest of us even aspiring to owning a second- or third-hand example will become harder to manage (and justify?) and this will also, in turn, reduce the market for new supercars.
Even today, how many large petrol engined cars are being bought compared to more economical diesels? An ever decreasing proportion, I'm afraid.
It is a great shame that one of our most loved and enjoyed expressions of individuality is being squeezed out like this and I don't think an electric motor with a sound-box playing a decent engine / exhaust note is good enough substitute.
We can only hope that the real enthusiasts - like the M Division - can find a way of giving us the fun and enjoyment of driving in a package which makes economic and environmental sense.
it hurt me to say that! But the point is that 1. This isn't sustainable and 2. they are becoming further out of the reach of us ordinary punters.
I bought an E39 M5 when it was 3 years old and ran it for 5 years - couldn't / wouldn't want to do that now with equivalent car. Even slightly ruing not having replaced it with something even more economical than my current car.
I have always chosen my cars on the basis of it being the most "PH-type" car I could afford to buy but now having to adjust my priorities as, I believe, almost everyone else is.
Having said that, I'm glad there are people who can and do buy the interesting stuff and don't want to see that change. Just hope my Lotto numbers come up and I can indulge, too.
I bought an E39 M5 when it was 3 years old and ran it for 5 years - couldn't / wouldn't want to do that now with equivalent car. Even slightly ruing not having replaced it with something even more economical than my current car.
I have always chosen my cars on the basis of it being the most "PH-type" car I could afford to buy but now having to adjust my priorities as, I believe, almost everyone else is.
Having said that, I'm glad there are people who can and do buy the interesting stuff and don't want to see that change. Just hope my Lotto numbers come up and I can indulge, too.
Dagnut said:
BuzzLightyear said:
It's a sad fact that supercars are becoming more and more irrelevant to more and more people these days.
Unfortunately, the purchase and ownership costs of this sort of car are beyond the great majority of us and this will only increase with social and economic pressure.
I suppose there will always be some who can and will afford them but for the rest of us even aspiring to owning a second- or third-hand example will become harder to manage (and justify?) and this will also, in turn, reduce the market for new supercars.
Even today, how many large petrol engined cars are being bought compared to more economical diesels? An ever decreasing proportion, I'm afraid.
It is a great shame that one of our most loved and enjoyed expressions of individuality is being squeezed out like this and I don't think an electric motor with a sound-box playing a decent engine / exhaust note is good enough substitute.
We can only hope that the real enthusiasts - like the M Division - can find a way of giving us the fun and enjoyment of driving in a package which makes economic and environmental sense.
it hurt me to say that!
Pretty sure there are more supercars being sold now than ever before...companies like Ferrari , Lamborghini and Porches are now assembly line manufactures...the global market has exploded for these cars.. Middle east, China, Russia..supercars are selling at huge prices in huge numbersUnfortunately, the purchase and ownership costs of this sort of car are beyond the great majority of us and this will only increase with social and economic pressure.
I suppose there will always be some who can and will afford them but for the rest of us even aspiring to owning a second- or third-hand example will become harder to manage (and justify?) and this will also, in turn, reduce the market for new supercars.
Even today, how many large petrol engined cars are being bought compared to more economical diesels? An ever decreasing proportion, I'm afraid.
It is a great shame that one of our most loved and enjoyed expressions of individuality is being squeezed out like this and I don't think an electric motor with a sound-box playing a decent engine / exhaust note is good enough substitute.
We can only hope that the real enthusiasts - like the M Division - can find a way of giving us the fun and enjoyment of driving in a package which makes economic and environmental sense.
it hurt me to say that! A supercar is aspirational, like a big house, first-class travel, fine watches, etc. That's not going to change.
Dagnut said:
bobberz said:
I don't think any SL in the last 50 years could be considered "supersports". Also, the Z8 was at least actually limited in production and is one of very few cars made since the 1960s that qualifies as drop-dead-gorgeous.
In addition, I don't think the Z8 ever pretended to be a supercar. Exotic, yes, but it was designed as a one-off homage to the 507, and then became limited production when it received overtly positive reception at the auto shows.
Your right maybe not super sports but they have history with big fast coupés..the SLS AMG is not that far of a stretch, they also gained experience from the SLR..the point being it would be a bigger jump for BMW In addition, I don't think the Z8 ever pretended to be a supercar. Exotic, yes, but it was designed as a one-off homage to the 507, and then became limited production when it received overtly positive reception at the auto shows.
That being said, I think with BMW's experience with the M5, M3GTS, and suchlike, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch for them. Basically, they could do a proper supercar, they've just never been bothered to.
bobberz said:
Fair point; BMW have never really done a supercar, unless you count the M1. But even that wasn't exactly that fast, even for its era.
That being said, I think with BMW's experience with the M5, M3GTS, and suchlike, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch for them. Basically, they could do a proper supercar, they've just never been bothered to.
Yeah it's just case of satisfying the acountantsThat being said, I think with BMW's experience with the M5, M3GTS, and suchlike, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch for them. Basically, they could do a proper supercar, they've just never been bothered to.
MonteV said:
"Whether that's a combustion engine or an electric motor, we don't care." Too bad, I do care. We may have to adapt, but the largest part of my motoring enjoyment is the sound. If it's not going to be there I might as well pick up sailing or something.
LOL Whilst I totally understand what you are saying, setting up a sail boat to get good speed from it can be even more rewarding than throttling a power boat.On the car front, I am right with you though.
In terms of the topic I would love to see it made. If BMW can make a reliable 4 door saloon that will do 200mph I am pretty sure they have the skillset to make a reliable supercar to rival that of Ferrari and co.
I also find it refreshing to hear the comments about power and how thats not everything. The problem with chasing out and out power is that whilst its easier for manufacturers to give us oodles more of the stuff, the general populations driving skills arn't increasing at the same rate. Sure that can be countered with driver aids but where is the fun in that. If we hark back to the E30 M3, thats where the M pedigree comes from. Its not about outright power at all. In fact the average Joe will get a lot more reward from something that allows one to leave his/her foot in. Any old monkey can stab the throttle and ride the warp speed express in a straight line. Where is the fun in that (Americans need not respond) ;-)
An earlier post mentions the M3 convertible suggesting this is damaging the credabity of the badge, but there has been one in every generation!
The separation in sports saloons from race cars was inevitable from the early 90's. Would the e36 M3 have been so popular with an S14 under the bonnet like the early BTCC cars? Probably not. However, I think that road and race cars could come back together (to se extent) if the desire was there. Various touring car series are going 4pot turbo with c300bhp. The new N20 engine in the new 328i could probably be pumped up a little from c245bhp to that sort of level. Some suitable bodywork and a CSL-style weight reduction and perhaps you have a car with some Motorsport cred again? Or just have a 6pot turbo and 400bhp instead and not care!
The separation in sports saloons from race cars was inevitable from the early 90's. Would the e36 M3 have been so popular with an S14 under the bonnet like the early BTCC cars? Probably not. However, I think that road and race cars could come back together (to se extent) if the desire was there. Various touring car series are going 4pot turbo with c300bhp. The new N20 engine in the new 328i could probably be pumped up a little from c245bhp to that sort of level. Some suitable bodywork and a CSL-style weight reduction and perhaps you have a car with some Motorsport cred again? Or just have a 6pot turbo and 400bhp instead and not care!
thewheelman said:
In my opinion the E30 M3 is one of the most overrated cars, it was great in its day, but drive one now against even an E46 M3. Power to weight ratios are more important than just having less weight. I'm guessing most people here are of an age when the E30 M3 was doing well in touring cars etc. Take off the rose tinted glasses, & move with the times.
Damn you car enthusiasts dragging up all these old bangers thewheelman said:
Power to weight ratios are more important than just having less weight.
Would disagree with you slightlyA lardy porker with a huge powerplant may have a good power to weight ratio, but would be a pathetic mess in the first corner.
Less weight and high power to weight ratio for me please
(unless thats what you are saying and I miss read)
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