Are modern headlights too bright?

[Clem2k3]

Cyder said:

Yes they do, lamps below a certain height have to be aimed at -1%, that is over 100m the beam drops by 1m. (I can't remember the angle off the top of my head). Taller vehicles with a bulb centre higher than a certain limit have to be set at -1.3% (1.3m drop in 100m).

I would check the actual values but somewhat fittingly for this thread, I'm in the middle of writing the automatic leveling software for a new model lamps and can't be bothered to open the ECE reg and check.

1-1.3% drop is flat for all intents and purposes though especially over the sorts of car to car ranges you find in real life.

I really dont see the need for the dip beam to be that bright or that long range. If you are on dip then you are either following a car and using their full beam lights, or you are passing a car going the other way and its only a temporary reduction in brightness

[Krikkit]

DJT said:

Ninja59 said:

Not 300m anymore for BMW, the latest laser lights are 600m!

The problem with these is the intense blue light that is scattered at the edge of the beam pattern. I found it very distracting/annoying when being followed by an i8 through unlit roads and the BMW was pitching over small undulations.

More geneally, this lumens arms race seems to be singularly focused on benefit to the individual driver and not the wider road using community.

I see an X3 heading home every day (going the opposite way), and any minor fluctuation in the road surface makes the dipped beams appear to "flash" blue - I've mistaken it for a police car several times now.

I think a lot of dipped beams are just too bright unfortunately, perhaps we need some of the beam-splitting tech that the newer laser/led lights have?

[Clem2k3]

FiF said:

Re alignment, have checked UK Vehicle lighting regs, UNECE regs, and the MOT testers manual and in all cases they are very specific in that where vehicles lave headlights mounted above 0.8m above the road surface then the downward angle on inclination on dipped beam has to be greater than for lamps that are mounted lower. The UNECE regs are more complicated and have a special clause for off road vehicles, but it still follows the general principle.

Having said the above I took my FL2 in for the annual test, the headlamps were correctly aligned per the regs, I knew that having set them up and measured them myself on a proper beam tester. When picking it up from the test, it had originally been failed as alignment too low, then passed on retest after adjustment, for which there was n/c for the adjustment or the retest. Now the illumination was superb, but it was clearly causing other folks problems so I wound it back down.

Turning to the second paragraph, re accusation of arms race, this needs qualification. There may be nothing in UK regs or the MOT manual, at least nothing that I can see, but UNECE regs certainly are starting to place limits on the light intensity. Mostly from what I can see it's a limitation on the maximum main beam output, certainly when I checked if I have dip and main beam on, an addition pair of Super Oscars would just about stay within the regs, but any more and wouldn't be compliant. This relates to new vehicle approvals and later installations apparently. Can't see a limit on dipped beam as yet, except by way of the limitation of two max lighting units, but guess it's a matter of time. Of course I may have missed it in the multiple amendments floating about.

Interesting info in there thanks.

But its the dip beam thats the problem. If you are using main beam then there shouldnt be anyone else in range really ... Main beams can be as bright as you like in my mind as long as you turn them off when it'll affect others (or have a fancy system to do it for you).

[PositronicRay]

Ninja59 said:

PositronicRay said:

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I'm in favour of consideration to other road users.

Agree to disagree, but then backstabs, lovely.

I never said I was not considerate to other road users, but as you appear to be on your high horse and not read that it is dipping, and type of roads I drive on alongside the fact it has happened on both dipped and "main" in around the same area, then keep living in a bubble - it is nothing to do with the adaptive main beam which you seem highly against (as opposed to the LED technology itself).

Added to this is in 90% of cases it has never been an issue, as I have said in my other posts poor road surfaces alongside gradients is when problems have occurred. Strangely enough I have had similar problems being "dazzled" and "blinded" at the same points as oncoming car in the MX5...

I admit the LED technology is bright, but BMW now only offer LED or laserlight not even Xenon.

You regard 90% as acceptable?

[swanny71]

Much of my driving is done in the dark and has been for years. Big German saloons were bad enough ten years ago but now pretty much all of the lifestyle, pretend 4x4 SUV's things are an absolute ball ache with their super duper, super nova bright headlights.

Despite what their owners/drivers might think or say about them being perfectly legal and properly aligned they still ps off many other road users in normal sized cars whose eyeballs get melted whenever they approach from behind.

Those clever adaptive LED systems are even worse, "intelligent" my arse! Turn the fking things back to normal please.

[FiF]

Clem2k3 said:

Interesting info in there thanks.

But its the dip beam thats the problem. If you are using main beam then there shouldnt be anyone else in range really ... Main beams can be as bright as you like in my mind as long as you turn them off when it'll affect others (or have a fancy system to do it for you).

I agree that it's the dip beam that's the problem, and per earlier comment think that one of the issues is the sharpness of the cut off, plus lights are getting smaller, so perhaps the intensity of the source is greater. Plus going back to old incandescent, on dip the source was hidden behind shields and so in, the light coming from a greater area if reflector.

I also agree with your view on main beam. I don't really care if a vehicle has a rally car night into day setup. Found out the restriction when looking to put auxiliaries on to deal with long dark straights in the forest, and my ideal setup in the space available would have been three lamps. Perusing a Hella catalogue the new regs were spelt out very clearly, both for type approvals and aftermarket. I still went ahead and did it though.

[ukaskew]

Clem2k3 said:

But its the dip beam thats the problem. If you are using main beam then there shouldnt be anyone else in range really ... Main beams can be as bright as you like in my mind as long as you turn them off when it'll affect others (or have a fancy system to do it for you).

I've no idea how far new BMW X5 main beam lights project, but after several experiences I can say with some certainty that it's further than all the fancy monitoring systems (that are supposed to dip or split when they see something else) actually monitor.

They may be more reactive to something coming towards them (with bright headlights), but if you're being followed they don't seem to do much until they've already burned your retinas clean out of your face.

[McVities]

Would polarized headlights and windscreens not fix this (on new cars at least) at a stroke?

Have the lenses arranged with the polarization on one plane and windscreens the the polarization at 90-degrees to this. It would cut down on all the glare etc from the lights, but you'd still be able to see perfectly

[PositronicRay]

McVities said:

Would polarized headlights and windscreens not fix this (on new cars at least) at a stroke?

Have the lenses arranged with the polarization on one plane and windscreens the the polarization at 90-degrees to this. It would cut down on all the glare etc from the lights, but you'd still be able to see perfectly

Perhaps we could introduce prescription screens at the same time.

[popeyewhite]

New Range Rovers and Audis seem particularly bright on dip. Is there some agreed level (lumens?) that shouldn't be breached?

[Mave]

McVities said:

Would polarized headlights and windscreens not fix this (on new cars at least) at a stroke?

Have the lenses arranged with the polarization on one plane and windscreens the the polarization at 90-degrees to this. It would cut down on all the glare etc from the lights, but you'd still be able to see perfectly

Just have to remember to check the polarisation of your sunglasses :-o

[GrizzlyBear]

Johnnytheboy said:

Clem2k3 said:

1. The dip beams are easily bright enough to dazzle nowadays

This is the problem - dip almost seems as bright as main beam now.

It's not that all lights have got brighter, but dipped beam seems brighter in proportion to main on a lot of vehicles.

Got to agree, it would say it is becoming dangerous.

I find JLR the worst.

[Patrick Bateman]

GrizzlyBear said:

Got to agree, it would say it is becoming dangerous.

I find JLR the worst.

I've found this even more so since getting a Boxster, being so low down.

[popeyewhite]

Patrick Bateman said:

GrizzlyBear said:

Got to agree, it would say it is becoming dangerous.

I find JLR the worst.

I've found this even more so since getting a Boxster, being so low down.

One of the reasons I sold my 911 years ago was because of headlight dazzle, from both front and back.

[alock]

I've come up with a good general rule for night driving along the lines of the 2 second rule...

You shouldn't be able to distinguish the colour of the car you are following. Either you are too close or your headlights are too high.

[FiF]

popeyewhite said:

New Range Rovers and Audis seem particularly bright on dip. Is there some agreed level (lumens?) that shouldn't be breached?

From what I can find yes and no. There are obviously the wattage regs related to incandescent bulbs, and aiui 55w is about 1000 lumens.

The regs state that any lights which produce more than 2000 lumens have to have washers and self levelling, so that's HID lamps which have seen stated as producing 3000 lumens.

What LED lights produce I don't know tbh, but considering I have one torch which produces 1800 lumens from two legs, I wonder what these LED arrays we see output.

[FiF]

swanny71 said:

Much of my driving is done in the dark and has been for years. Big German saloons were bad enough ten years ago but now pretty much all of the lifestyle, pretend 4x4 SUV's things are an absolute ball ache with their super duper, super nova bright headlights.

Despite what their owners/drivers might think or say about them being perfectly legal and properly aligned they still ps off many other road users in normal sized cars whose eyeballs get melted whenever they approach from behind.

Those clever adaptive LED systems are even worse, "intelligent" my arse! Turn the fking things back to normal please.

Whilst looking up info on this today read that the detector systems are supposed to be able to detect an oncoming cyclist producing 60 lumens iirc, can't remember at what distance.

Well one bit of our winter night time dog walk is along the side of an unlit road. These systems certainly don't seem to detect two of us with head torches both lamps producing 172 lumens according to the manufacturer specification. Turn them up to 825 lumens and they soon get the message, although there's the odd one that also needs the 1800 lumen hand torch. Aimed at the ground not in their eyes before anyone complains two wrongs etc. Of course it may just be dopey drivers admittedly.

The other thing that pisses me off about these auto systems is that they require sight of the oncoming light. A thinking driver can detect the loom of lights approaching round a bend or over a brow and dip early.

[swanny71]

Fi said:

The other thing that pisses me off about these auto systems is that they require sight of the oncoming light. A thinking driver can detect the loom of lights approaching round a bend or over a brow and dip early.

Another example of 'smart' systems in modern cars giving dumb people more reasons/justification to pay less attention whilst driving.

[David87]

They may indeed ps off other motorists, but once you've had a car with LED headlamps you won't ever want another without. They're really lovely to drive with at night. Sorry.

[Kolbenkopp]

The LED light source is not the problem IMVHO, it's just the aiming/levelling that's not good enough. New Mercs seem especially bad to me, especially the tall pensioner carriers.