RE: Driven: Vauxhall Corsa VXR Nurburgring
Discussion
tommyhilla said:
I don't think you can say torque or power are more important that the other. It's a tricky subject to properly understand (and I'm not saying i do). Torque gives the impression of being faster, hence why so many believe modern turbo diesels are the fastest things ever created. F1 cars have relatively small torque outputs but are monumentally fast. When capacity is restricted the only way to make a vehicle go faster is to increase the revolutions of the crank, or add some fi. The more revolutions the more power strokes and air entering the engine hence more power. Hi torque and a flat torque curve makes a car more effortless to go fast due to the availabilty of power (area under the graph remember) cars that rely on high revolutions need to be worked harder- which you don't do all the time which can give the impression of the vehicle not being as quick. I understand that there are other factors such as weight and drag.
Weight plays a huge factor as a heavy car with low torque but loads of HP will struggle to pull away, hence when watching F1 they say if you drop out of the power band then the engine has no power due to such a low torque figure but once the revs are up they are stupid quick.This week i have moved from a Honda S2000 to a Ford Focus RS Mk1 and the Honda felt alot quicker due to the screaming engine and the power high up, however if you dropped out of Vtec it had very little at all to offer but the RS is much quicker and more flexible, in gear accleration decimates the S2000 due to the Torque
St John Smythe said:
dele said:
Please tell me your joking?
Ive seen more poorly driven barried up 182s, 172s and RS Meganes than i have had hot dinners
What part of Hertfordshire is that? I haven't seen them?Article said:
Vauxhall, it's probably fair to say, has a bit of an image problem when it comes to hot hatches. However unfair it may be to the Luton Griffin, which has produced its fair share of decent fast hatches over the years, there is a general perception that hot Vauxhalls are driven by 'the wrong sort'.
Thus, while Renault basks in the glow of being perceived as a genuine 'enthusiast's brand', Vauxhall is illuminated by the sodium glare of the Maccy-Dee car park.
Come to Hertfordshire/Essex thenThus, while Renault basks in the glow of being perceived as a genuine 'enthusiast's brand', Vauxhall is illuminated by the sodium glare of the Maccy-Dee car park.
Ive seen more poorly driven barried up 182s, 172s and RS Meganes than i have had hot dinners
I live in Watford and must agree Hemel Hempstead and parts of Watford like a blacked out clio 172 a great deal with a stupid sound sytem or another is the peugeot 106 GTI that they bowl around in the reason being the VXR is more expensive and so the chavs with a limited budget can pick up a 172 for around a 1,000 - 1,500 quid now and barry away to their hearts content, so yes the Renaults now are becoming a true chav icon
XitUp said:
Exactly, fast diesels aren't fast because they have lots of torque, they are fast because they have lots of power.
I'm a little confused by what you've just said. AFAIK, power = torque x speed, so a petrol engine at 6000rpm producing 200Nm will be have twice the power of a diesel producing 200Nm at 3000rpm. However, if you then gear the diesel at 1:2 compared to the petrol you can have the same torque at the wheels. If anything, IMO, a diesel is 'torquey' because it can't produce the torque at high speeds, so it lacks power, whereas a petrol engine might produce less torque at similar engine speeds, but can still generate useful torque at much higher speeds, hence more power.
sootyrumble said:
Weight plays a huge factor as a heavy car with low torque but loads of HP will struggle to pull away, hence when watching F1 they say if you drop out of the power band then the engine has no power due to such a low torque figure but once the revs are up they are stupid quick.
This week i have moved from a Honda S2000 to a Ford Focus RS Mk1 and the Honda felt alot quicker due to the screaming engine and the power high up, however if you dropped out of Vtec it had very little at all to offer but the RS is much quicker and more flexible, in gear accleration decimates the S2000 due to the Torque
Weight is more to do with Newton's second law and inertia, although of course you have to match the powerplant to the car, you can't really use a revvy unit with limited low-down torque in a two-tonne barge, but that's more about choosing the right engine in the first place.This week i have moved from a Honda S2000 to a Ford Focus RS Mk1 and the Honda felt alot quicker due to the screaming engine and the power high up, however if you dropped out of Vtec it had very little at all to offer but the RS is much quicker and more flexible, in gear accleration decimates the S2000 due to the Torque
Your comparison with the S2k and the Focus RS is more about the width of the power band - the same torque figure spread over a wide rpm range will feel more flexible, even if there isn't actually any more torque. The Focus probably has more torque so feels even more flexible, however the gearing of the S2k will likely go some way to 'alleviate' the revvy nature of the engine.
sootyrumble said:
St John Smythe said:
dele said:
Please tell me your joking?
Ive seen more poorly driven barried up 182s, 172s and RS Meganes than i have had hot dinners
What part of Hertfordshire is that? I haven't seen them?Article said:
Vauxhall, it's probably fair to say, has a bit of an image problem when it comes to hot hatches. However unfair it may be to the Luton Griffin, which has produced its fair share of decent fast hatches over the years, there is a general perception that hot Vauxhalls are driven by 'the wrong sort'.
Thus, while Renault basks in the glow of being perceived as a genuine 'enthusiast's brand', Vauxhall is illuminated by the sodium glare of the Maccy-Dee car park.
Come to Hertfordshire/Essex thenThus, while Renault basks in the glow of being perceived as a genuine 'enthusiast's brand', Vauxhall is illuminated by the sodium glare of the Maccy-Dee car park.
Ive seen more poorly driven barried up 182s, 172s and RS Meganes than i have had hot dinners
I live in Watford and must agree Hemel Hempstead and parts of Watford like a blacked out clio 172 a great deal with a stupid sound sytem or another is the peugeot 106 GTI that they bowl around in the reason being the VXR is more expensive and so the chavs with a limited budget can pick up a 172 for around a 1,000 - 1,500 quid now and barry away to their hearts content, so yes the Renaults now are becoming a true chav icon
t in a clio.. often with the worst body kit you have ever seen.. Most of the Astra VXR's, Focus ST's I see are driven by ppl 30+ and are driven like a human is behind the wheel!! I like little frenchies.. but sadly most are driven by people with small willies and big speakers...
XitUp said:
What would you like me to explain about them?
No, if they have less power and all else is equal, they will not be quicker, even with more torque. Sorry.
Maybe, the jerk from a modern diesel makes it feel quicker than it is.
I'd say the whole "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" fib is the wrong way round.
I used to own a new SEAT Leon 150tdi Cupra. I had it remapped by revo. It gave 190bhp/290lb ft of torque.No, if they have less power and all else is equal, they will not be quicker, even with more torque. Sorry.
Maybe, the jerk from a modern diesel makes it feel quicker than it is.
I'd say the whole "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" fib is the wrong way round.
I traded it in for a Honda Civic Type R. 197bhp/157 lb ft of torque approx.
I will tell you now from experience that the heavier, less powerful (but torquier) Leon would absolutely monster the Type R.
The Leon was a better daily driver because it was easier to drive quickly as the power was more accessible. The Type R was more fun because of it's peaky nature.
When in the right mood the Type R was a hoot but it was a pain as a daily driver if i was tired and just wanted to get home. The two cars were very different and very good at different things.
The comment - 'they both have a gearbox' is surely made from someone who knows little about or has little experience of different types of car...............
But then you do drive an MX5
JMF894 said:
XitUp said:
What would you like me to explain about them?
No, if they have less power and all else is equal, they will not be quicker, even with more torque. Sorry.
Maybe, the jerk from a modern diesel makes it feel quicker than it is.
I'd say the whole "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" fib is the wrong way round.
I used to own a new SEAT Leon 150tdi Cupra. I had it remapped by revo. It gave 190bhp/290lb ft of torque.No, if they have less power and all else is equal, they will not be quicker, even with more torque. Sorry.
Maybe, the jerk from a modern diesel makes it feel quicker than it is.
I'd say the whole "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" fib is the wrong way round.
I traded it in for a Honda Civic Type R. 197bhp/157 lb ft of torque approx.
I will tell you now from experience that the heavier, less powerful (but torquier) Leon would absolutely monster the Type R.
The Leon was a better daily driver because it was easier to drive quickly as the power was more accessible. The Type R was more fun because of it's peaky nature.
When in the right mood the Type R was a hoot but it was a pain as a daily driver if i was tired and just wanted to get home. The two cars were very different and very good at different things.
The comment - 'they both have a gearbox' is surely made from someone who knows little about or has little experience of different types of car...............
But then you do drive an MX5
RenesisEvo said:
Weight is more to do with Newton's second law and inertia, although of course you have to match the powerplant to the car, you can't really use a revvy unit with limited low-down torque in a two-tonne barge, but that's more about choosing the right engine in the first place.
Your comparison with the S2k and the Focus RS is more about the width of the power band - the same torque figure spread over a wide rpm range will feel more flexible, even if there isn't actually any more torque. The Focus probably has more torque so feels even more flexible, however the gearing of the S2k will likely go some way to 'alleviate' the revvy nature of the engine.
Yes sorry i was in a hurry and didn't explain my point well and as you say torque spread makes a huge difference as in the RX8 they only have 159ft/lb but its 100% from 200rpm i think in a linear line due to be a rotary engine.Your comparison with the S2k and the Focus RS is more about the width of the power band - the same torque figure spread over a wide rpm range will feel more flexible, even if there isn't actually any more torque. The Focus probably has more torque so feels even more flexible, however the gearing of the S2k will likely go some way to 'alleviate' the revvy nature of the engine.
As to the S2k (237bhp, 153ft/lb's and 1286kg) and the RS (212bhp, 229ft/lb's and 1230kg)both producing close to 200bhp per tonne but in theory the RS is handicapped with only a 5 speed gearbox, but in every situation bar a standarding start 0-60 drag race the RS will decimate the S2k even though it feels slower due to the way it produces its power with waves of Torque.
People make to much about the BHP figure of a car i think Torque and BHP are equally important in a real world car because your are not going to be sitting in a small high rev power band all the time and so a Torque heavy engine will be a better option
I cant fully comment as Ive only driven the arctic vxr, but Ive owned a 197 clio and driven a 200. When I drove the vxr I was impressed by the torque and the cackles on over run, however it completely lacked something in the driving experience. Maybe the steering or gearbox or both. I just didnt feel connected to it.
Im guessing this version is slightly better but still wont match the rs clio for sheer driving pleasure.
Im guessing this version is slightly better but still wont match the rs clio for sheer driving pleasure.
JMF894 said:
I used to own a new SEAT Leon 150tdi Cupra. I had it remapped by revo. It gave 190bhp/290lb ft of torque.
I traded it in for a Honda Civic Type R. 197bhp/157 lb ft of torque approx.
I will tell you now from experience that the heavier, less powerful (but torquier) Leon would absolutely monster the Type R.
The Leon was a better daily driver because it was easier to drive quickly as the power was more accessible. The Type R was more fun because of it's peaky nature.
When in the right mood the Type R was a hoot but it was a pain as a daily driver if i was tired and just wanted to get home. The two cars were very different and very good at different things.
The comment - 'they both have a gearbox' is surely made from someone who knows little about or has little experience of different types of car...............
But then you do drive an MX5
This.I traded it in for a Honda Civic Type R. 197bhp/157 lb ft of torque approx.
I will tell you now from experience that the heavier, less powerful (but torquier) Leon would absolutely monster the Type R.
The Leon was a better daily driver because it was easier to drive quickly as the power was more accessible. The Type R was more fun because of it's peaky nature.
When in the right mood the Type R was a hoot but it was a pain as a daily driver if i was tired and just wanted to get home. The two cars were very different and very good at different things.
The comment - 'they both have a gearbox' is surely made from someone who knows little about or has little experience of different types of car...............
But then you do drive an MX5
I ran a mapped Skoda Fabia VRS with milltek system, 160 intake, filter and EGR delete. estimated 170-180bhp and 300lb/ft.
I scalping VTEC powered machinery was a speciality, especially somewhere that requires in-gearacceleration like MK. with a well set-up diesel you can punch well above your weight, in power terms.
But that upsets the petrol purists so we're not allowed to talk about that, plus diesels are a bit boring.
JB! said:
with a well set-up diesel you can punch well above your weight, in power terms.
No you can't. You can run around urban roundabouts looking to race people who might just have better things to do than be interested in you, so you can dash home to the internet to spunk yourself silly justifying spending the GDP of Kenya on giving your rattly tin box another 4bhp, but sadly you can't defy physics.RenesisEvo said:
XitUp said:
Exactly, fast diesels aren't fast because they have lots of torque, they are fast because they have lots of power.
I'm a little confused by what you've just said. AFAIK, power = torque x speed, so a petrol engine at 6000rpm producing 200Nm will be have twice the power of a diesel producing 200Nm at 3000rpm. However, if you then gear the diesel at 1:2 compared to the petrol you can have the same torque at the wheels. If anything, IMO, a diesel is 'torquey' because it can't produce the torque at high speeds, so it lacks power, whereas a petrol engine might produce less torque at similar engine speeds, but can still generate useful torque at much higher speeds, hence more power.
I'm not sure what you're confused by?
JMF894 said:
I used to own a new SEAT Leon 150tdi Cupra. I had it remapped by revo. It gave 190bhp/290lb ft of torque.
I traded it in for a Honda Civic Type R. 197bhp/157 lb ft of torque approx.
I will tell you now from experience that the heavier, less powerful (but torquier) Leon would absolutely monster the Type R.
No, it wouldn't.I traded it in for a Honda Civic Type R. 197bhp/157 lb ft of torque approx.
I will tell you now from experience that the heavier, less powerful (but torquier) Leon would absolutely monster the Type R.
JMF894 said:
The comment - 'they both have a gearbox' is surely made from someone who knows little about or has little experience of different types of car...............
But then you do drive an MX5
If you say so, sunshine.But then you do drive an MX5
sootyrumble said:
Yes sorry i was in a hurry and didn't explain my point well and as you say torque spread makes a huge difference as in the RX8 they only have 159ft/lb but its 100% from 200rpm i think in a linear line due to be a rotary engine.
Is that a typo?10 Pence Short said:
No you can't. You can run around urban roundabouts looking to race people who might just have better things to do than be interested in you, so you can dash home to the internet to spunk yourself silly justifying spending the GDP of Kenya on giving your rattly tin box another 4bhp, but sadly you can't defy physics.
Put your toys back in the pram sweetie!I liked my VRS because it used to upset traditional n/a hot hatches.
Your choice to believe what I say or not, but no need to over react.
Also, what's the GDP of Kenya? 1k? I don't think I even spent that!
phil_cardiff said:
Because of the torque...
What I'm trying to say is that you won't have to rev the bejeesus out of it to make progress.
I've not driven either, just a theory.
And you'd be right. I bought a VXR about 2 hrs after returning my B7 RS4. Thought...'Why not?' and grinned for months. The torque was great - Steering wasnt. But a great 4/5 car.What I'm trying to say is that you won't have to rev the bejeesus out of it to make progress.
I've not driven either, just a theory.
I wouldn't buy a fast Vauxhall, or a fast Renault. But if I had to choose I'd definitely go with the French. Not sure why, but there's a little romance there, and good racing pedigree. I have no such feelings for the Vauxhall. Hey, Zinedine Zidane is French dammit!
Plus everyone knows French chavs are actually damn cool.
I've changed my mind, I would buy a quick Renault, I can pull off blue suede adidas trainers as well as anyone from Marseille. Next years RS Clio will have a turbo so it will have the torque to match the chassis.
Plus everyone knows French chavs are actually damn cool.
I've changed my mind, I would buy a quick Renault, I can pull off blue suede adidas trainers as well as anyone from Marseille. Next years RS Clio will have a turbo so it will have the torque to match the chassis.
Edited by Hellbound on Thursday 1st December 02:48
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