£5-8k. E46 330Ci vs E46 M3?
Discussion
He is the OP. Just wondering why the 130i 'doesn't compare'.
If the M5 running costs are too heavy for his miles then I'm not sure why the M3 isn't - it's not cheaper to run than an M5. It's marginally more economical but everything else is as expensive if not more so (Servicing on the M3 costs more than the M5).
His latest post kinda suggests 330Ci really.
If the M5 running costs are too heavy for his miles then I'm not sure why the M3 isn't - it's not cheaper to run than an M5. It's marginally more economical but everything else is as expensive if not more so (Servicing on the M3 costs more than the M5).
His latest post kinda suggests 330Ci really.
Hi there,
Basically the 1 series would be no good for me because I consider it to be too small for me. Everyone's different and there's nothing 'wrong' with a 1er by any means, it's just not for me. Maybe I didn't use the best phrase when I said "don't think it compares", what I meant by that was just that the 3 and 5 are what I'd consier to be "full sized" cars and the 1er is a "small car" in my personal opinion. (Other opinions may vary, the value of your investment can go up as well as down, no running no bombing, no heavy petting. Standard terms and conditions apply.)
Regards the M5, I have not checked out the running costs by my gut feeling would be that a heavier car with more power will cost a chunk more on fuel, brakes and tyres vs. an M3. So yeah, not actually checked but if the running costs of the M3 are justifyable I think the M5 costs of running M5 would be too high to justify to myself or the wife. The other consideration with the M5 would be that for a fixed price the M5 would be older or more miles and an M3 at the same price point.
Hope that clears my thinking up a bit? Both are good cars, but I just don't think that either of them are for me.
Cheers
Basically the 1 series would be no good for me because I consider it to be too small for me. Everyone's different and there's nothing 'wrong' with a 1er by any means, it's just not for me. Maybe I didn't use the best phrase when I said "don't think it compares", what I meant by that was just that the 3 and 5 are what I'd consier to be "full sized" cars and the 1er is a "small car" in my personal opinion. (Other opinions may vary, the value of your investment can go up as well as down, no running no bombing, no heavy petting. Standard terms and conditions apply.)
Regards the M5, I have not checked out the running costs by my gut feeling would be that a heavier car with more power will cost a chunk more on fuel, brakes and tyres vs. an M3. So yeah, not actually checked but if the running costs of the M3 are justifyable I think the M5 costs of running M5 would be too high to justify to myself or the wife. The other consideration with the M5 would be that for a fixed price the M5 would be older or more miles and an M3 at the same price point.
Hope that clears my thinking up a bit? Both are good cars, but I just don't think that either of them are for me.
Cheers
To be honest I'm going to be deeply unpopular and get myself flamed but I think the 330Ci is just the better bet. I know that loses me internet points and I know its a totally uncool thing to suggest but the thing about the M3 is that 70% of the time in normal crap boring driving its just a 330Ci anyway. It's the same car sitting in a traffic queue. It's the same car on the Motorway at 70mph. Once you get it on the right road and open it up the M3 is HUGELY better than a 330Ci and the two cars simply don't compare but the fact you need to ask which to buy suggests to me that it's probably not going to be different enough day to day to justify the IMHO considerable extra costs involved in running one.
The problem is getting objective opinion. Everyone with a 330Ci will be convinced they never wanted an M3 anyway and everyone with an M3 is convinced that its worth the extra money as its more special. Both sides will defend the respective choices they made - this is only human nature.
I reckon you'll be nearly - but not quite, because obviously costs etc aside it simply isnt as good - as satisfied with a 330Ci and much more satisfied with the overall running cost element.
IMHO if an M3 is the right car you already know it and wouldnt even entertain the idea of a 330Ci. The very fact you are trying to decide between them suggests that really the 330Ci is the better choice.
The problem is getting objective opinion. Everyone with a 330Ci will be convinced they never wanted an M3 anyway and everyone with an M3 is convinced that its worth the extra money as its more special. Both sides will defend the respective choices they made - this is only human nature.
I reckon you'll be nearly - but not quite, because obviously costs etc aside it simply isnt as good - as satisfied with a 330Ci and much more satisfied with the overall running cost element.
IMHO if an M3 is the right car you already know it and wouldnt even entertain the idea of a 330Ci. The very fact you are trying to decide between them suggests that really the 330Ci is the better choice.
Fox- said:
To be honest I'm going to be deeply unpopular and get myself flamed but I think the 330Ci is just the better bet. I know that loses me internet points and I know its a totally uncool thing to suggest but the thing about the M3 is that 70% of the time in normal crap boring driving its just a 330Ci anyway. It's the same car sitting in a traffic queue. It's the same car on the Motorway at 70mph. Once you get it on the right road and open it up the M3 is HUGELY better than a 330Ci and the two cars simply don't compare but the fact you need to ask which to buy suggests to me that it's probably not going to be different enough day to day to justify the IMHO considerable extra costs involved in running one.
The problem is getting objective opinion. Everyone with a 330Ci will be convinced they never wanted an M3 anyway and everyone with an M3 is convinced that its worth the extra money as its more special. Both sides will defend the respective choices they made - this is only human nature.
I reckon you'll be nearly - but not quite, because obviously costs etc aside it simply isnt as good - as satisfied with a 330Ci and much more satisfied with the overall running cost element.
IMHO if an M3 is the right car you already know it and wouldnt even entertain the idea of a 330Ci. The very fact you are trying to decide between them suggests that really the 330Ci is the better choice.
Credit where it's due: that is a very insightful post. It's exactly my current dilemma. With my "sensible head" on, I know you're right - that the 330Ci would be the logical choice. But I have a nagging doubt that if I bought one, then I might regret it that little bit every now and again when I want to go playing. That said, I've the Mitsi Evo for proper playing. So maybe I'm just a little unhindged to think I need an M3 as well?The problem is getting objective opinion. Everyone with a 330Ci will be convinced they never wanted an M3 anyway and everyone with an M3 is convinced that its worth the extra money as its more special. Both sides will defend the respective choices they made - this is only human nature.
I reckon you'll be nearly - but not quite, because obviously costs etc aside it simply isnt as good - as satisfied with a 330Ci and much more satisfied with the overall running cost element.
IMHO if an M3 is the right car you already know it and wouldnt even entertain the idea of a 330Ci. The very fact you are trying to decide between them suggests that really the 330Ci is the better choice.
Edited by nsi on Friday 24th February 18:47
Everybody told me if I bought a 530i Sport instead of an M5 I'd regret it. At the time, I had no choice - an M5 was over £20k and I simply couldnt afford to buy one even if I wanted to - but really this hasn't been the case. Do I love the M5? Yes. Is it my favourite car ever? Probably, yes. Do I enjoy my 530i? Absolutely, as the fact I've decided against changing it for an M5 now you can practically get an M5 free with participating packets of kellogs cornflakes testifies. Could I afford the running costs of an M5? Easily. Would I be quite so carefree when a bill appears or when I decide to do a 500 mile trip? Who knows, and IMHO, thats the important point. I kinda thing the best balance, unless you are so die-hard-passionate about the car its well worth it, is to pick the car for which you simply don't notice the ongoing running costs. Feeling ouch every time it needs money spending - whether you can afford it or not - leaves a nasty taste.
Which I guess you could argue makes me biased 'against' the M car, which goes back to my point about how hard it is to get an objective opinion
Which I guess you could argue makes me biased 'against' the M car, which goes back to my point about how hard it is to get an objective opinion
Edited by Fox- on Friday 24th February 19:07
Fox- said:
I kinda thing the best balance, unless you are so die-hard-passionate about the car its well worth it, is to pick the car for which you simply don't notice the ongoing running costs. Feeling ouch every time it needs money spending - whether you can afford it or not - leaves a nasty taste.
Well the flipside to that would be: How would I feel about getting an MPG /almost/ as bad as an M3? Or getting service/tyre bills which are /almost/ as bad as an M3? But without the specialness of 'having an M3'.I think I mentioned on this thread that I currently drive a 7 series, the tyres/brakes/etc on that are not mega cheap to be honest, but I'd probably regret paying loads over the life of the car to fund something which it transpires I don't enjoy as much as I did when I bought it. Don't get me wrong, I'm a car nut and will always spend what needs spending. But the point is that I'd potentially feel happier about spending on the M3 bills, because I have an M3, vs spending on bills for something that wasn't as special.
Dunno if I've explained that clearly. But in a nutshell: You said it was about "you don't notice the running costs" and I was putting the counter point that maybe it's about "running costs you think are 'worth it' to have the car you want". (Because similar, but admittedly lower, running costs on a car you regret buying might actually hurt your heart that bit more, despite them hurting your wallet less.)
I'm not convinced that the M3 is only a little more to run than the 330Ci, though. The combined consumption figure is a good 7-8mpg adrift of the 330Ci - now you can say all you want about the validty of the figures, what people get but even if you dont agree with the figures I suspect the differential between them is about right. Yea, sure, people baby an M3 on the motorway and get 32mpg - but do the same in a 330Ci and you get 39-40. Somebody will pop up in a minute and say he doesnt get over 31 in his 330 - but drive like that in an M3 and you'll get much less still..
Tyres are about the only parity, really.
An Inspection 2 on a 330Ci is less than half the price of an Inspection 2 on an M3. Ok, sure, you can get the service done cheaper if you take it to an indy who'll not bother with the valve clearances or whatever but then you can take a 330Ci to an indy as well and I suspect still end up paying half the price for a service.
Also dont forget that for the price of a 2001 M3 with 7 less than careful owners and 'age related marks' you get a 2005ish facelift 330Ci with lower owners.
You may strongly disagree with me - if you do, then the answer is simple. Buy an M3
Tyres are about the only parity, really.
An Inspection 2 on a 330Ci is less than half the price of an Inspection 2 on an M3. Ok, sure, you can get the service done cheaper if you take it to an indy who'll not bother with the valve clearances or whatever but then you can take a 330Ci to an indy as well and I suspect still end up paying half the price for a service.
Also dont forget that for the price of a 2001 M3 with 7 less than careful owners and 'age related marks' you get a 2005ish facelift 330Ci with lower owners.
You may strongly disagree with me - if you do, then the answer is simple. Buy an M3
Edited by Fox- on Friday 24th February 19:29
Edited by Fox- on Friday 24th February 19:34
I've already posted in this thread but I'll add a few more comments here. Whether you feel I am 'qualified' or not to offer opinion is entirely up to you.
Regardless of what you may think, the M5 will not cost any more to run than the M3. If anything the M3 will throw up larger bills with greater frequency.
The differences in fuel economy between the two isn't great either. The weight difference between both cars is roughly 200kg. Couple of passengers?
You sound as if you will regret buying the 330 everytime you step out of it, if which is the case, buy the M3.
Regardless of what you may think, the M5 will not cost any more to run than the M3. If anything the M3 will throw up larger bills with greater frequency.
The differences in fuel economy between the two isn't great either. The weight difference between both cars is roughly 200kg. Couple of passengers?
You sound as if you will regret buying the 330 everytime you step out of it, if which is the case, buy the M3.
Cheers for the comment above.
Regards this one:
How do you get to 70p/mile anyway?
Regards this one:
Tonberry said:
Let's say the M3 costs 70p per mile to run all in (which it will).
0.70p x 20,000 miles = £14,000 per annum.
-£4500 leaves you with a £10k per year bill?
Happy with that?
I guess I'll see if I can cut down the work mileage if it costs me over 45p per mile, if they are only paying me 45p per mile. In which case I'd do 10k private, so £7k bill.0.70p x 20,000 miles = £14,000 per annum.
-£4500 leaves you with a £10k per year bill?
Happy with that?
How do you get to 70p/mile anyway?
In fact, if I get 25mpg average, then at 140p/litre that's 25p/mile in fuel cost. So over 20k miles that would be £5k.
You reckoned on £14k of cost over 20k miles, so where's the other 9k come from? 45p per mile in maintainence on top of the 25p in fuel to make 70p per mile???
Anyway, if I work on 25p/mile for fuel, and I do 10k personal and 10k business then I'll spend 0.25 * 20,000 = £5k on fuel, and get £4.5k in expenses. So I'll personally be funding the brakes/tyres/servicing and work will be funding the fuel.
(Deff need to make sure I don't hit 10k miles in a year though, as my claimable rate drops to 25p = not good!!)
You reckoned on £14k of cost over 20k miles, so where's the other 9k come from? 45p per mile in maintainence on top of the 25p in fuel to make 70p per mile???
Anyway, if I work on 25p/mile for fuel, and I do 10k personal and 10k business then I'll spend 0.25 * 20,000 = £5k on fuel, and get £4.5k in expenses. So I'll personally be funding the brakes/tyres/servicing and work will be funding the fuel.
(Deff need to make sure I don't hit 10k miles in a year though, as my claimable rate drops to 25p = not good!!)
Edited by nsi on Saturday 25th February 00:51
£0.70 per mile is on the higher side of what it could possibly cost you. Pretty much a worse case scenario depending on how good of a car you begin with.
That figure includes depreciation and a guestimate at insurance too. You may well be able to come in at just under £0.50, it all depends on the car.
£8k could see you end up with an 'interesting' M3 to say the least if not careful, so go in with your eyes open.
4 tyres - £1000
2-3 services - £1500 (depends on what needs doing - discs, pads, plugs, shims, bushes, wishbones etc etc)
Unforeseen bill - £1000 (lesser cars also throw up such bills)
I think £3000 - £3500 is a sensible figure to put aside for maintenance alone. You may get lucky and not need all of it.
Most of the above has been taken from the members garage section.
That figure includes depreciation and a guestimate at insurance too. You may well be able to come in at just under £0.50, it all depends on the car.
£8k could see you end up with an 'interesting' M3 to say the least if not careful, so go in with your eyes open.
4 tyres - £1000
2-3 services - £1500 (depends on what needs doing - discs, pads, plugs, shims, bushes, wishbones etc etc)
Unforeseen bill - £1000 (lesser cars also throw up such bills)
I think £3000 - £3500 is a sensible figure to put aside for maintenance alone. You may get lucky and not need all of it.
Most of the above has been taken from the members garage section.
Had my 330Ci 2 years, immensely capable car but exciting it aint. Would I buy one again.....yes because it does everything competently. How many times will you go for a hoon? How many times will it be hustled down a A/B road? If the answer to these is probably never and its going to sit on a motorway, I'd personally forget the M3, save the money and running costs. Although I've never driven an M3 my history is Z3 2.8, 330Ci, Elise, and now 944T. Wish I'd bought the M3 rather than the 330 after my commuting changed from motorway to mainly A/B roads and subsequently bought the Elise, if you can afford it then go for it.
TSCfree said:
Had my 330Ci 2 years, immensely capable car but exciting it aint. Would I buy one again.....yes because it does everything competently. How many times will you go for a hoon? How many times will it be hustled down a A/B road? If the answer to these is probably never and its going to sit on a motorway, I'd personally forget the M3, save the money and running costs. Although I've never driven an M3 my history is Z3 2.8, 330Ci, Elise, and now 944T. Wish I'd bought the M3 rather than the 330 after my commuting changed from motorway to mainly A/B roads and subsequently bought the Elise, if you can afford it then go for it.
I felt exactly the same about the 330ci I had.Here's my running costs comparison for an M3 vs. a 330Ci. I've used my best estimate of figures. If you think I'm wrong then I would like to know where I've gone wrong please. This isn't about "I'm right/you're wrong" etc, it's just about me trying to understand what I'm missing, because there's a good chance I am missing something:
Note: I've excluded depreciation and unexpected costs from this working. I'll deal with those costs as and when they arrive rather than factor them into a 'pence per mile' calculation. The way I think about cars it aids my decision making to exclude dep/unexpected bills, I know others may prefer them factored into a per mile cost, but I prefer to look at it as: "OK, this is my fixed guaranteed cost per mile, so how much £ will that leave me each month to put in savings towards paying the unexpected bills when they come in, and saving for a new car (i.e. funding the depreciation)."
Note: I've excluded depreciation and unexpected costs from this working. I'll deal with those costs as and when they arrive rather than factor them into a 'pence per mile' calculation. The way I think about cars it aids my decision making to exclude dep/unexpected bills, I know others may prefer them factored into a per mile cost, but I prefer to look at it as: "OK, this is my fixed guaranteed cost per mile, so how much £ will that leave me each month to put in savings towards paying the unexpected bills when they come in, and saving for a new car (i.e. funding the depreciation)."
| Running Costs | M3 | 330Ci |
|---|---|---|
| Fuel | 25.5 | 21.2 |
| Tyres | 8.0 | 6.0 |
| Servicing | 2.0 | 1.3 |
| [Exclude Depreciation] | ||
| Total per mile (pence) | 35.5 | 28.5 |
| Miles in year | 20000.0 | 20000.0 |
| Total per year (£) | 7090.9 | 5692.4 |
| Total per month (£) | 590.9 | 474.4 |
| Diff per month (£) | (116.5) | |
| Workings | ||
| Fuel: | ||
| MPG (average) | 25.0 | 30.0 |
| price/litre | 140.0 | 140.0 |
| Pence/mile | 25.5 | 21.2 |
| Tyres: | ||
| Cost per tyre (£) | 200.0 | 180.0 |
| Life in miles | 10000.0 | 12000.0 |
| Pence/mile | 8.0 | 6.0 |
| Servicing: | ||
| Average service cost (£) | 400.0 | 250.0 |
| Frequency in miles | 20000.0 | 20000.0 |
| Pence/mile | 2.0 | 1.3 |
1. Servicing.
I've had a 330Ci. £250 per 20,000 miles? Are you joking? £250 may well be the "base" cost of a service (although it varies depending on whether it's an oil service, inspection 1 or inspection 2), but you are excluding the extra bits which will inevitably need doing on top. The base fee is basically to check the car over and do the essentials (fluid changes). In my experience, whilst one or two services might come out at that cost, at least half of them will be double, treble or more, especially as the car gets older. Furthermore the service intervals are around 15,000 (based on normal mix of driving behaviour - and you will NOT stretch that out by having predominantly motorway journeys, at least not by more than a few %, although it is possible to shorten this interval by a thousand or two by having lots of short journeys and lots of hard B road driving).
As for the M3, I think these "base cost" services are around 50 to 100% higher. In addition, I understand that M parts are generally a lot more expensive. So the same comments apply but multiply up the cost further. Neither of these cars is going to be in its youth, especially the M3. Cooling systems and clutches will probably need doing during your ownership. New discs and pads all round? A caliper or two? I would add at least a thousand to your servicing "per 20k miles" just for the 330. More for the M3.
(Admittedly the above is based on having everything done at BMW but the car will not automatically need less work done if you choose to go independent).
2. What tyres are you proposing to use? Those numbers look conservative, and in saying that I am not for one moment suggesting getting butt-ploughed for your tyres at BMW.
3. Depreciation. Why exclude it? Other than to bring the appearance of cost down?
I detect a tendency to err on the lower side of realistic numbers. Your choice, as you're the one who will pay, and I'm not telling you what choice to make. But one effect of taking all the numbers lower is to make the M3 a less financially significant proposition, and if you are doing that (subconsciously or otherwise) then I would suggest that you have the mentality to do whatever it takes to persuade yourself into an M3. In that case you have already made your choice, so enjoy the M3!
I've had a 330Ci. £250 per 20,000 miles? Are you joking? £250 may well be the "base" cost of a service (although it varies depending on whether it's an oil service, inspection 1 or inspection 2), but you are excluding the extra bits which will inevitably need doing on top. The base fee is basically to check the car over and do the essentials (fluid changes). In my experience, whilst one or two services might come out at that cost, at least half of them will be double, treble or more, especially as the car gets older. Furthermore the service intervals are around 15,000 (based on normal mix of driving behaviour - and you will NOT stretch that out by having predominantly motorway journeys, at least not by more than a few %, although it is possible to shorten this interval by a thousand or two by having lots of short journeys and lots of hard B road driving).
As for the M3, I think these "base cost" services are around 50 to 100% higher. In addition, I understand that M parts are generally a lot more expensive. So the same comments apply but multiply up the cost further. Neither of these cars is going to be in its youth, especially the M3. Cooling systems and clutches will probably need doing during your ownership. New discs and pads all round? A caliper or two? I would add at least a thousand to your servicing "per 20k miles" just for the 330. More for the M3.
(Admittedly the above is based on having everything done at BMW but the car will not automatically need less work done if you choose to go independent).
2. What tyres are you proposing to use? Those numbers look conservative, and in saying that I am not for one moment suggesting getting butt-ploughed for your tyres at BMW.
3. Depreciation. Why exclude it? Other than to bring the appearance of cost down?
I detect a tendency to err on the lower side of realistic numbers. Your choice, as you're the one who will pay, and I'm not telling you what choice to make. But one effect of taking all the numbers lower is to make the M3 a less financially significant proposition, and if you are doing that (subconsciously or otherwise) then I would suggest that you have the mentality to do whatever it takes to persuade yourself into an M3. In that case you have already made your choice, so enjoy the M3!
Edited by a_bread on Saturday 25th February 11:15
I explained that I want to find the base cost, that's the point of my calculation.
Things like clutches and brake calipers and depreciation will come out of my savings account, which is topped up with money not spent on the base cost. That's just how I think about the costs. Same for depreciation, which is why it's excluded from my calc. (i.e. I'm TRYING to find the base cost, not the all in cost per mile) So that extra £1k for unexpected bills would, to me, be a savings job not a base cost job.
(And I think I have already persuaded myself on the choice - so it would take a ruinous revelation to put me off I guess.)
In light of your comments, here's a revised calc (adjusted tyres and servicing)
Things like clutches and brake calipers and depreciation will come out of my savings account, which is topped up with money not spent on the base cost. That's just how I think about the costs. Same for depreciation, which is why it's excluded from my calc. (i.e. I'm TRYING to find the base cost, not the all in cost per mile) So that extra £1k for unexpected bills would, to me, be a savings job not a base cost job.
(And I think I have already persuaded myself on the choice - so it would take a ruinous revelation to put me off I guess.)
In light of your comments, here's a revised calc (adjusted tyres and servicing)
| Running Costs | M3 | 330Ci |
|---|---|---|
| Fuel | 25.5 | 21.2 |
| Tyres | 10.0 | 6.7 |
| Servicing | 3.0 | 2.0 |
| [Exclude Depreciation] | ||
| Total per mile (pence) | 38.5 | 29.9 |
| Miles in year | 20000.0 | 20000.0 |
| Total per year (£) | 7690.9 | 5975.8 |
| Total per month (£) | 640.9 | 498.0 |
| Diff per month (£) | (142.9) | |
| Workings | ||
| Fuel: | ||
| MPG (average) | 25.0 | 30.0 |
| price/litre | 140.0 | 140.0 |
| Pence/mile | 25.5 | 21.2 |
| Tyres: | ||
| Cost per tyre (£) | 250.0 | 200.0 |
| Life in miles | 10000.0 | 12000.0 |
| Pence/mile | 10.0 | 6.7 |
| Servicing: | ||
| Average service cost (£) | 600.0 | 400.0 |
| Frequency in miles | 20000.0 | 20000.0 |
| Pence/mile | 3.0 | 2.0 |
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