RE: PH Blog: why Lotus-Mansory makes sense
Discussion
toppstuff said:
I will try and explain why I am concerned about this development..
I guess I am an ideal potential buyer. Young enough to want a car like an Evora and maybe even able to afford one ! I am tuned into the narrative of established brands like Porsche, BMW etc and understand why people buy them.
As for Lotus, what does the brand mean to me?
Well, for me it represents interesting, technologically advanced sports cars that are pure and connected to the road. The Lotus brand is about simplicity - all of their best cars are simple, easy to understand and easy to appreciate.
The Lotus brand is also about motorsport. Lotus is about winning GP cars, JPS, Senna and De Angelis, Ronnie Petersen etc... Only the most stupid, ill-educated petrol head would fail to understand the amazing motorsport heritage of Lotus. And Lotus won GP's because they innovated in their car design.
Now this is where I think Lotus is going wrong, maybe taking the wrong direction.
Ferrari are an amazingly successful car company. They make product everyone wants. The Ferrari brand and its motorsport heritage are inseparable. You can still sense the spirit of Enzo Ferrari, you sense that if he were alive and a young man today he would totally "get" a car like the 430 Scuderia for example. The lineage is clear to see and easy to understand. This is why Ferrari is a successful brand.
Now lets look at Lotus.
Many people say that Lotus cannot survive by selling cars to the old bearded Lotus lovers of old. This is nonsense.
The main worry for me is that Lotus seems to be ignoring its heritage. Lotus seems to be trying to reach out to new customers who know nothing of the Lotus history, and they are doing this deliberately. This makes no sense - they may as well create a new car company with a new name, if they are ignoring the legacy and the bloodline of the past.
Lotus somehow needs to create an image that ties its past with its future. They are not doing a good job of this. The Mansory tie up is proof that in terms of marketing, the owners just don't understand what they have.
Lotus should, IMO,
1. Reference the past. Reference the fact that Lotus stands for chassis engineering that changed the world of motorsport and supplied the worlds finest GP drivers.
2. Show that just as in the past Lotus innovated and succeeded, it is still doing it now. Make it clear that a Lotus provides more "feel" for the road you are driving than other cars ( especially German ones ! ). Exploit the fact that as Porsche moves toward electronic, lifeless steering, a Lotus gives you a connection to the road. A connection that goes all the way back to Senna himself.
3. Lotus is not about bling. Lotus is about engineering. Lotus is about being clever. Lotus is about being the "thinking mans' Sports car. The fashion victim buying a car because of the bling and the bodykit is never going to be loyal to the Lotus brand, because they do not understand the brand anyway. Lotus should be pitching to a smarter customer than that.
Am I living in the past? No way. But Lotus should look to the future by understanding what already makes it special.
All this Mansory nonsense means nothing. It does not seem to fit at all to the Lotus brand values.
It is sad to see that Lotus management really do not understand their own company. They do not understand it at all.
We should be seeing clever marketing, referencing the clever , alternative thinking of Lotus cars. About feeling the road. About efficiency. About "feel" rather than bling. About Senna, not Swiss Beatz...
It is tragic that they don't see this...
Well discussed toppstuff and makes a lot of sense. I think the Mansory tie up is mostly positive but I agree with you that they need to market more with Lotus classic image.I guess I am an ideal potential buyer. Young enough to want a car like an Evora and maybe even able to afford one ! I am tuned into the narrative of established brands like Porsche, BMW etc and understand why people buy them.
As for Lotus, what does the brand mean to me?
Well, for me it represents interesting, technologically advanced sports cars that are pure and connected to the road. The Lotus brand is about simplicity - all of their best cars are simple, easy to understand and easy to appreciate.
The Lotus brand is also about motorsport. Lotus is about winning GP cars, JPS, Senna and De Angelis, Ronnie Petersen etc... Only the most stupid, ill-educated petrol head would fail to understand the amazing motorsport heritage of Lotus. And Lotus won GP's because they innovated in their car design.
Now this is where I think Lotus is going wrong, maybe taking the wrong direction.
Ferrari are an amazingly successful car company. They make product everyone wants. The Ferrari brand and its motorsport heritage are inseparable. You can still sense the spirit of Enzo Ferrari, you sense that if he were alive and a young man today he would totally "get" a car like the 430 Scuderia for example. The lineage is clear to see and easy to understand. This is why Ferrari is a successful brand.
Now lets look at Lotus.
Many people say that Lotus cannot survive by selling cars to the old bearded Lotus lovers of old. This is nonsense.
The main worry for me is that Lotus seems to be ignoring its heritage. Lotus seems to be trying to reach out to new customers who know nothing of the Lotus history, and they are doing this deliberately. This makes no sense - they may as well create a new car company with a new name, if they are ignoring the legacy and the bloodline of the past.
Lotus somehow needs to create an image that ties its past with its future. They are not doing a good job of this. The Mansory tie up is proof that in terms of marketing, the owners just don't understand what they have.
Lotus should, IMO,
1. Reference the past. Reference the fact that Lotus stands for chassis engineering that changed the world of motorsport and supplied the worlds finest GP drivers.
2. Show that just as in the past Lotus innovated and succeeded, it is still doing it now. Make it clear that a Lotus provides more "feel" for the road you are driving than other cars ( especially German ones ! ). Exploit the fact that as Porsche moves toward electronic, lifeless steering, a Lotus gives you a connection to the road. A connection that goes all the way back to Senna himself.
3. Lotus is not about bling. Lotus is about engineering. Lotus is about being clever. Lotus is about being the "thinking mans' Sports car. The fashion victim buying a car because of the bling and the bodykit is never going to be loyal to the Lotus brand, because they do not understand the brand anyway. Lotus should be pitching to a smarter customer than that.
Am I living in the past? No way. But Lotus should look to the future by understanding what already makes it special.
All this Mansory nonsense means nothing. It does not seem to fit at all to the Lotus brand values.
It is sad to see that Lotus management really do not understand their own company. They do not understand it at all.
We should be seeing clever marketing, referencing the clever , alternative thinking of Lotus cars. About feeling the road. About efficiency. About "feel" rather than bling. About Senna, not Swiss Beatz...
It is tragic that they don't see this...
Edited by toppstuff on Tuesday 27th March 12:26
Fundamentally Lotus is suffering from lack of image and that is due to under investment, few product launches and poor or little marketing.
Mansory makeovers are superficial and vulgar, but the real surprise is that it's a German company that has been awarded the licence to modify the cars because Wolf Zimmerman (CTO) and Wiebke Bauer (Director or Licencing and Merchandising) arn't German... are they? .... you're kidding!
Grammar Nazi:
And then I saw it and I thought "blimey, you know, that doesn't actually look half had." And it doesn't
Shouldn't that be half BAD
as for the artical - I think the Masonary make over of the Mclaren was required - A boss of mine handed back his deposit and broughr an Aston Martin because he didnt feel special in the Mclaren. If I were to buy a new car I'd still buy a Cayman S rather than a Mansoned Lotus.
And then I saw it and I thought "blimey, you know, that doesn't actually look half had." And it doesn't
Shouldn't that be half BAD
as for the artical - I think the Masonary make over of the Mclaren was required - A boss of mine handed back his deposit and broughr an Aston Martin because he didnt feel special in the Mclaren. If I were to buy a new car I'd still buy a Cayman S rather than a Mansoned Lotus.
I can't understand why Lotus are doing this. Lotus are well known for winning world championships, little drivers sportscars, engineering purity, fragile beauty.
Why are Lotus so determined to throw their heritage out the window. Lotus is being turned into a mini-me version of Ferrari or Porsche. It's not working.
It's just plain crazy.
Why are Lotus so determined to throw their heritage out the window. Lotus is being turned into a mini-me version of Ferrari or Porsche. It's not working.
It's just plain crazy.
A new Lotus Evora S costs £61,500 basic - which may explain why I haven't seen any lately.
Adding to the basic price the cost of an optional mansory interior upgrade wont improve sales.
And I've come a curious 'Freddie Mercury' Special Edition, at £75k:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3691247.htm
Adding to the basic price the cost of an optional mansory interior upgrade wont improve sales.
And I've come a curious 'Freddie Mercury' Special Edition, at £75k:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3691247.htm
I suppose, and this pains me, it makes sense. Lotus closed (reduced numbers?) the trim shop and they were able to make trim your car in whatever tasteful/tasteless combo that took your fancy. With this partnership with Mansory you can have your new Evora trimmed in the standard way but if you want something different (again tasteful or tasteless) then Mansory are there to cater for your needs and presumably liaise directly with the factory so you don't have to faff around getting your brand new seats unstitched.
No matter what the design, the quality of workmanship will be excellent. Ok, it's going to cost but isn't that the way in which Lotus is heading?
No matter what the design, the quality of workmanship will be excellent. Ok, it's going to cost but isn't that the way in which Lotus is heading?
suffolk009 said:
I can't understand why Lotus are doing this. Lotus are well known for winning world championships, little drivers sportscars, engineering purity, fragile beauty.
Why are Lotus so determined to throw their heritage out the window. Lotus is being turned into a mini-me version of Ferrari or Porsche. It's not working.
It's just plain crazy.
Lotus are also well known for not making a profit for 15 years. Why are Lotus so determined to throw their heritage out the window. Lotus is being turned into a mini-me version of Ferrari or Porsche. It's not working.
It's just plain crazy.
It'd be plain crazy to carry on producing cars that appealed to small numbers of enthusiasts.
Mansory isn't designing the cars, it's not even tweaking the designs of the production cars, they are producing custom specials (like Lotus have done anyway in the past - Harrods LE anyone?) and showcase designs.
Keep calm, buy a V6 Exige.
I don't know what to think about the way lotus is going.
I do know that it needs investment and a decent range of cars, which it currently appears to be working towards.
Trouble is, all the plans are coming at once. A brand is trying to rebuilt prior to the product. New brand and image is clashing with old product. It may have made more sense to have a product which goes in hand with the image.
Like apple pushing a cool, hi-tech, modern image when the product they have is an old brick-like nokia 3310.
Trouble with people clinging onto ideas of what lotus stands for and being affordable, is that people aren't really buying those models. The company will not survive with the current Elise and evora. There is lots of, what we want is an affordable Elise. Basic spec elises are not flying out of showrooms. There is a Market, but it is too small.
I've had a Elise s2 for 4 years. Loved it, thought is was brilliant and I still rate it as one of the best cars I have driven. But I grew out of it, needed some comfort for long distance driving hols. Also wanted a car with a 'pedigree' engine, not a rover unit. Evora wasn't out so alternative was an exige. Really the same product as the Elise.
Only path to take was to Porsche. Luxury, pedigree and great design and engineering. Ride and handling may be different but not exactly inferior. Maybe not the last 10th of feel in the steering, but the trade off is incomparable.
Lotus could still stick to their ethos. Ensure that their models are at least as light as the nearest competition (50-100kg). Just enough to justify performance through lightness etc.
Would it take much to mimic the Porsche range.
Sub boxster - the budget Elise, a direct boxster rival, a sub 911 rival and then the full fat 911 rival. They don't need to be stripped out models. Could probably share platforms and engines, scaleable profits.
As for mansory link, it is probably a better way of getting someone else to produce carbon fibre parts rather than investing in house. Probably mansory will just build to lotus designs.
I do know that it needs investment and a decent range of cars, which it currently appears to be working towards.
Trouble is, all the plans are coming at once. A brand is trying to rebuilt prior to the product. New brand and image is clashing with old product. It may have made more sense to have a product which goes in hand with the image.
Like apple pushing a cool, hi-tech, modern image when the product they have is an old brick-like nokia 3310.
Trouble with people clinging onto ideas of what lotus stands for and being affordable, is that people aren't really buying those models. The company will not survive with the current Elise and evora. There is lots of, what we want is an affordable Elise. Basic spec elises are not flying out of showrooms. There is a Market, but it is too small.
I've had a Elise s2 for 4 years. Loved it, thought is was brilliant and I still rate it as one of the best cars I have driven. But I grew out of it, needed some comfort for long distance driving hols. Also wanted a car with a 'pedigree' engine, not a rover unit. Evora wasn't out so alternative was an exige. Really the same product as the Elise.
Only path to take was to Porsche. Luxury, pedigree and great design and engineering. Ride and handling may be different but not exactly inferior. Maybe not the last 10th of feel in the steering, but the trade off is incomparable.
Lotus could still stick to their ethos. Ensure that their models are at least as light as the nearest competition (50-100kg). Just enough to justify performance through lightness etc.
Would it take much to mimic the Porsche range.
Sub boxster - the budget Elise, a direct boxster rival, a sub 911 rival and then the full fat 911 rival. They don't need to be stripped out models. Could probably share platforms and engines, scaleable profits.
As for mansory link, it is probably a better way of getting someone else to produce carbon fibre parts rather than investing in house. Probably mansory will just build to lotus designs.
stuckmojo said:
If they wanted someone to improve their detail and design they could have employed someone good at it. You know, like Bertone or Pininfarina.
Hypothesis:Pininfarina / Bertone = ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££
Mansory = ££££££££
Lotus have very little £ to spare
What would you do in their shoes?
Are the kind of people that Mansory typically attract going to be picking Lotuses (?Loti) over the equivalent Range Rover, Bentley etc?
I just don't feel Lotus has that bling bling image that the Mansory buyer would want.
Range Rovers are seen in rap videos, expensive Mercs and BMWs are seen in rap videos. To my knowledge, an Elise has never been Snoop Dogg's vehicle of choice.
As much as I hate it, I can understand why Mansory succeed on tarting up the super expensive motors for those with more cash than sense. I just don't feel in 'those' circles the Lotus badge has street cred or brand power to pull it off.
I just don't feel Lotus has that bling bling image that the Mansory buyer would want.
Range Rovers are seen in rap videos, expensive Mercs and BMWs are seen in rap videos. To my knowledge, an Elise has never been Snoop Dogg's vehicle of choice.
As much as I hate it, I can understand why Mansory succeed on tarting up the super expensive motors for those with more cash than sense. I just don't feel in 'those' circles the Lotus badge has street cred or brand power to pull it off.
The Evora is not selling very well as is.
the Mansory Evora looks miles better, on the Lotus Forum every one seems to like it.
The Evora GTE looks stuning imo.
The issue here is cost, the Evora S is already 70k new with the packs it needs they cannot add even more money to a car which imo is 20k over priced as it stands.
People are now buying 2nd hand Evora and things are moving but at mid 30's
I would rather a Cayman R at 60k than a Evora at 70k and I think the Cayman R is 10k over priced.
But if this was 65k I would go and buy one today
the Mansory Evora looks miles better, on the Lotus Forum every one seems to like it.
The Evora GTE looks stuning imo.
The issue here is cost, the Evora S is already 70k new with the packs it needs they cannot add even more money to a car which imo is 20k over priced as it stands.
People are now buying 2nd hand Evora and things are moving but at mid 30's
I would rather a Cayman R at 60k than a Evora at 70k and I think the Cayman R is 10k over priced.
But if this was 65k I would go and buy one today
Edited by mrdemon on Tuesday 27th March 13:27
kambites said:
So basically your theory is that they're not using them as a design house, but as a contracted in quality control unit?
frankly, what lotus needs. I just can't believe that it's impossible to make a minimalist car that's screwed together properly. It doesn't need carbon and aluminium everywhere, just to feel finished and not smelling of glue.Everyone keeps saying "oh, costs must be going up", but why must that be so? If Mansory get in there and retrim any Lotus in your wildest tastes, adorn it with CF spangles etc and write you a nice bill, fine, but chances are there'll be an improvement in quality across the line of standard cars once they're consulted, why does that mean prices go up?
We have to accept that Lotus' aren't cheap, they never have been. The S1 Elise could never be thought of as a cheap car - a tiny plastic tub powered by a small, cheap engine, that cost a considerable chunk of cash... It was brilliant - an instant legend of a car and one which I've had on my must-own list since I was old enough to know what it was - but definitely not a cheap car.
Now they've got to compete somewhere, and they're looking to eat the bottom of the Porsche market, you need to match the Germans et al. on quality as well as driving ability, and this is a way to start that process.
We have to accept that Lotus' aren't cheap, they never have been. The S1 Elise could never be thought of as a cheap car - a tiny plastic tub powered by a small, cheap engine, that cost a considerable chunk of cash... It was brilliant - an instant legend of a car and one which I've had on my must-own list since I was old enough to know what it was - but definitely not a cheap car.
Now they've got to compete somewhere, and they're looking to eat the bottom of the Porsche market, you need to match the Germans et al. on quality as well as driving ability, and this is a way to start that process.
DS240 said:
...
Would it take much to mimic the Porsche range.
Sub boxster - the budget Elise, a direct boxster rival, a sub 911 rival and then the full fat 911 rival. They don't need to be stripped out models. Could probably share platforms and engines, scaleable profits.
...
This is what I thought Lotus is working on - a modular range of sportscars to rival Porsche with some elements shading into Ferrari and Aston MartinWould it take much to mimic the Porsche range.
Sub boxster - the budget Elise, a direct boxster rival, a sub 911 rival and then the full fat 911 rival. They don't need to be stripped out models. Could probably share platforms and engines, scaleable profits.
...
This is an interesting article with some good points.
However, why dont lotus build a brand by actually achieving something? After all, the reason why Ferrari and Porsche are famous has much to do with Motorsport heritage.
Why dont they Carry on with the F1, perhaps even rallying and build a reputation based upon winning and producing good cars.
Who has ever built a reputable credible brand and needed to tie in lame Rap artists and crap 'styling houses'?
However, why dont lotus build a brand by actually achieving something? After all, the reason why Ferrari and Porsche are famous has much to do with Motorsport heritage.
Why dont they Carry on with the F1, perhaps even rallying and build a reputation based upon winning and producing good cars.
Who has ever built a reputable credible brand and needed to tie in lame Rap artists and crap 'styling houses'?
andy_s said:
Lotus are also well known for not making a profit for 15 years.
It'd be plain crazy to carry on producing cars that appealed to small numbers of enthusiasts.
The problem actually is that everyone has unrealistic expectations of how many cars Lotus should be selling. They have ambition for selling numbers that are just not in line with the types of car they have been making. Morgan are managing to expand without trying to move into exciting new bling markets. Ariel seem to be making sufficient cars to employ a few people. Ginetta are doing rather well. Caterham were another classic example of a niche company doing rather well(albeit until recently, we'll have to see how it all pans out)It'd be plain crazy to carry on producing cars that appealed to small numbers of enthusiasts.
All these companies have realistic commercial expectations.
I know it's very old-fashioned to run a business that isn't driven to be the biggest/market leader/have a planned exit strategy for the investors. But those less commercially ambitious companies can provide stable employment for many people, and build the sort of cars that people want to buy.
That's how you build brand loyalty.
Edited by suffolk009 on Tuesday 27th March 13:45
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