RE: Ringside Seat: playing with the big boys

RE: Ringside Seat: playing with the big boys

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Discussion

BelfastBoy

779 posts

159 months

Sunday 8th April 2012
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Tom73 said:
To answer this question for myself I did a rough and dirty little video analysis of this second video showing the car in a still shot as it passes in it's claimed 400 km/h run:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fplRcQVpNps

Here are the frames:

http://www.picfront.org/d/8Bgb

Now. We know that the Agera R is 4,293 m bumper to bumper and it's covering about 105% of it's own length from one frame to another (frames 3 to 6 in the gif are the most interesting reference points since they contain the least amount of ghosting). 4,293 m * 105% = 4,50765 m. To know how fast it's travelling now that we know how many meters it covers in one frame we need to multiply it with the frame ratio. In this case the video has 25 frames per second (confirmed with supercarsV12 who shot the video), so 25 fps * 4,50765 = 112,69125 m/s. Now we have it's speed in meters per second. We multiply this with the amount of seconds in an hour - 112,69125 m/s * 3600 secs = 405688,5 m/h. And then finally we convert it to km/h; 405688,5 m/h = 405,7 km/h.

So approximately 400 km/h then. You could get an exact number with more time and effort, but ~400:ish is good enough in my book, all things considered. wink


But the real story here isn't the speed itself but that they managed to do it without hitting the wall. 250 mph had been done plenty of times on shorter distances and from digs, but as far as I know no one has been brave enough to attempt it on the Döttinger Höhe which points towards remarkable high speed stability in both acceleration and braking. Or plain stupidity. Or a little bit of both.
Tom, I'm not going to argue with your maths or your thought processes, and I totally agree that the Agera is capable of 250mph+. Personally, I just find it hard to believe that it could hit that speed at the Nurburgring without crashing spectacularly. To widen the debate somewhat, is there any independently verified evidence for other supercars / hypercars being capable of big (maybe 220mph+) speeds on the 'ring straight? The Agera is clearly a fearsomely fast car in a straight line, but we're talking the kinds of speeds that Le Mans sports prototypes used to hit on the Mulsanne straight before the chicanes were introduced. If the Koenigsegg can do it at the 'ring, I'll hold my hands up and say 'Fair play'. But, given the kind of OTT safety preparations Bugatti implement with the Veyron at Ehra-Lessien (spelling?), the Koenigsegg driver must have great faith in his car's stability and safety if his only precaution seemed to be a helmet!

bosscerbera

8,188 posts

242 months

Sunday 8th April 2012
quotequote all
BelfastBoy said:
Tom, I'm not going to argue with your maths or your thought processes, and I totally agree that the Agera is capable of 250mph+. Personally, I just find it hard to believe that it could hit that speed at the Nurburgring without crashing spectacularly. To widen the debate somewhat, is there any independently verified evidence for other supercars / hypercars being capable of big (maybe 220mph+) speeds on the 'ring straight? The Agera is clearly a fearsomely fast car in a straight line, but we're talking the kinds of speeds that Le Mans sports prototypes used to hit on the Mulsanne straight before the chicanes were introduced. If the Koenigsegg can do it at the 'ring, I'll hold my hands up and say 'Fair play'. But, given the kind of OTT safety preparations Bugatti implement with the Veyron at Ehra-Lessien (spelling?), the Koenigsegg driver must have great faith in his car's stability and safety if his only precaution seemed to be a helmet!
I think Tom's maths are hard to dispute (assuming the video he analyses is undoctored).

Comparing with Le Mans/Group C cars perhaps overlooks their relatively low power and high downforce (drag). The K'egg demolishes the 'Top Trumps' data for these cars.

vincegail

2,456 posts

154 months

Sunday 8th April 2012
quotequote all
Top speed record at Le Mans is 405 kmh (some sources say 407) set in 1988 by the WM-Peugeot WM-P88 which was specially designed for low drag/high speed. The Le Mans straight is 6 kms long, the Nurburgring one 3.5.

The maths will be correct, but I guess with the wrong data. The pictures are extremely blurry, and measurement errors are easily made. A few percent off makes a lot of difference!

As long as I don't see any GPS-certified data I remain sceptical!


Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Monday 9th April 2012
quotequote all
BelfastBoy said:
Tom73 said:
To answer this question for myself I did a rough and dirty little video analysis of this second video showing the car in a still shot as it passes in it's claimed 400 km/h run:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fplRcQVpNps

Here are the frames:

http://www.picfront.org/d/8Bgb

Now. We know that the Agera R is 4,293 m bumper to bumper and it's covering about 105% of it's own length from one frame to another (frames 3 to 6 in the gif are the most interesting reference points since they contain the least amount of ghosting). 4,293 m * 105% = 4,50765 m. To know how fast it's travelling now that we know how many meters it covers in one frame we need to multiply it with the frame ratio. In this case the video has 25 frames per second (confirmed with supercarsV12 who shot the video), so 25 fps * 4,50765 = 112,69125 m/s. Now we have it's speed in meters per second. We multiply this with the amount of seconds in an hour - 112,69125 m/s * 3600 secs = 405688,5 m/h. And then finally we convert it to km/h; 405688,5 m/h = 405,7 km/h.

So approximately 400 km/h then. You could get an exact number with more time and effort, but ~400:ish is good enough in my book, all things considered. wink


But the real story here isn't the speed itself but that they managed to do it without hitting the wall. 250 mph had been done plenty of times on shorter distances and from digs, but as far as I know no one has been brave enough to attempt it on the Döttinger Höhe which points towards remarkable high speed stability in both acceleration and braking. Or plain stupidity. Or a little bit of both.
Tom, I'm not going to argue with your maths or your thought processes, and I totally agree that the Agera is capable of 250mph+. Personally, I just find it hard to believe that it could hit that speed at the Nurburgring without crashing spectacularly. To widen the debate somewhat, is there any independently verified evidence for other supercars / hypercars being capable of big (maybe 220mph+) speeds on the 'ring straight? The Agera is clearly a fearsomely fast car in a straight line, but we're talking the kinds of speeds that Le Mans sports prototypes used to hit on the Mulsanne straight before the chicanes were introduced. If the Koenigsegg can do it at the 'ring, I'll hold my hands up and say 'Fair play'. But, given the kind of OTT safety preparations Bugatti implement with the Veyron at Ehra-Lessien (spelling?), the Koenigsegg driver must have great faith in his car's stability and safety if his only precaution seemed to be a helmet!
Why is it hard to believe that 250mph is possible on the straight, why would it result in a crash? I've reached about 180-190mph on that straight and it was drama free, that was in a car with a lot less power and far more weight.

Kghaas

173 posts

150 months

Monday 9th April 2012
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For the record: the driver is NOT Baard Eker, the owner of K'egg. It is a Norwegian Porsche cup driver, which races at Nurburgring on a regular basis. He is very capable...and mad enough smile

Edited by Kghaas on Monday 9th April 17:59

BelfastBoy

779 posts

159 months

Monday 9th April 2012
quotequote all
Kawasicki said:
Why is it hard to believe that 250mph is possible on the straight, why would it result in a crash? I've reached about 180-190mph on that straight and it was drama free, that was in a car with a lot less power and far more weight.
Personal scepticism, that's all. That level of performance seems far in advance of anything I'm aware of on the Nurburgring straight. Having said that though, I haven't been there, you have. If you believe that it's possible for an Agera to hit 250mph on that straight, then that's your opinion and I can't argue with you. Like I've already said, I've no doubts whatsoever that the Agera is capable of those sorts of speeds, and wish that Koenigsegg would demonstrate the performance themselves with some proper independent figures from somewhere long enough to discover the top speed.

To try and understand the other side of the argument, I dug up the old Car And Driver article from Nov 2005 about the Veyron hitting 253mph at Ehra-Lessien. This quote in particular is interesting: "I barely touched the car's top speed governor that was set at 253mph (407.5kph) on that first lap, but on the second I held the car there for at least three of the back straight's five miles." So, on the assumption that the Veyron hit the straight from the banking at 120mph or whatever it is and started harder acceleration, it must've hit the top speed in well under two miles - to allow the driver to sustain the speed for a few miles and still have enough space to slow down again. So, going back to the Nurburgring, on the assumption that the Agera accelerates at least as hard as the Veyron - I'm guessing it's faster? - and also assuming the driver carried plenty of speed onto the straight, maybe it did hit 250mph. I can't say that it didn't, but would be REALLY impressed if it did.

Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Monday 9th April 2012
quotequote all
BelfastBoy said:
Kawasicki said:
Why is it hard to believe that 250mph is possible on the straight, why would it result in a crash? I've reached about 180-190mph on that straight and it was drama free, that was in a car with a lot less power and far more weight.
Personal scepticism, that's all. That level of performance seems far in advance of anything I'm aware of on the Nurburgring straight. Having said that though, I haven't been there, you have. If you believe that it's possible for an Agera to hit 250mph on that straight, then that's your opinion and I can't argue with you. Like I've already said, I've no doubts whatsoever that the Agera is capable of those sorts of speeds, and wish that Koenigsegg would demonstrate the performance themselves with some proper independent figures from somewhere long enough to discover the top speed.

To try and understand the other side of the argument, I dug up the old Car And Driver article from Nov 2005 about the Veyron hitting 253mph at Ehra-Lessien. This quote in particular is interesting: "I barely touched the car's top speed governor that was set at 253mph (407.5kph) on that first lap, but on the second I held the car there for at least three of the back straight's five miles." So, on the assumption that the Veyron hit the straight from the banking at 120mph or whatever it is and started harder acceleration, it must've hit the top speed in well under two miles - to allow the driver to sustain the speed for a few miles and still have enough space to slow down again. So, going back to the Nurburgring, on the assumption that the Agera accelerates at least as hard as the Veyron - I'm guessing it's faster? - and also assuming the driver carried plenty of speed onto the straight, maybe it did hit 250mph. I can't say that it didn't, but would be REALLY impressed if it did.
I'm a natural sceptic too, but look at this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctMg_p_3Afo
The car goes very, very hard. I would friggin' love to have a go in this.

vincegail

2,456 posts

154 months

Monday 9th April 2012
quotequote all
This one of the Agera R against Veyron SS is also very interesting, especially the relative speed (speeddifference between the two). At first the Veyron has the upperhand, but the Agera R catches up pretty quickly!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV4mV7qb1Wk

stephen300o

15,464 posts

227 months

Monday 9th April 2012
quotequote all
vincegail said:
This one of the Agera R against Veyron SS is also very interesting, especially the relative speed (speeddifference between the two). At first the Veyron has the upperhand, but the Agera R catches up pretty quickly!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV4mV7qb1Wk
Thats what was said earlier, the Veyron starts running out of puff while the Agera relentlessly pours on the pace.
Some great leading edge tech from Mr Koenigsegg especially considering it's only a tiny company.

Tom73

190 posts

168 months

Monday 9th April 2012
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stephen300o said:
Some great leading edge tech from Mr Koenigsegg especially considering it's only a tiny company.
Indeed. And this is why Koenigsegg is so charming. While comparatively massive Ferrari is bragging about it's new aerodynamics and brake cooling in the F12 Berlinetta...

"Boosting downforce by 76 percent is the new Aero Bridge which uses the bonnet to generate downforce by channelling air away from the upper part of the car onto its flanks, reducing drag and increasing downforce along the way. The Active Brake Cooling is a system that opens guide-vanes to the brake cooling ducts only at high operating temperatures which trigger better downforce at high speeds."

... Koenigsegg have not only done it...



... but are moving forward to bigger and better things like ANS nano coated cylinder sleeves, Cargine pneumatic hybrids and hollow carbon fiber skin constructions without making much noise about it.

http://www.appliednanosurfaces.com/pressrelease201...

http://www.cargine.com/index.html


Some good stuff from the man himself here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-zv6ZY4p4A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laQz0Ih4u0U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV2h2I4UeXs

Jayfish

6,795 posts

202 months

Wednesday 11th April 2012
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Dale (& PH) your story has made the front page of koenisegg's website smilewww.koenigsegg.com/