RE: Is Lotus in proper bother this time?
Discussion
In any case, by "more of what one can already buy elsewhere", I didn't just mean "heavy cars", I also meant "sports cars which make a virtue of being ordinary to drive". That is where the most obvious compromises would have to happen to make the next Elise as mass-market acceptable as a Z4 or Boxster, and given that one can already buy sports cars in four flavours of German bland, I don't need another option.
RYH64E said:
That will be the light weight aluminium chassis? The one that uses epoxy adhesives to further reduce the weight that would have resulted from increasing the extrusion thickness to allow for welding?
As far as I'm aware (and I'm happy to be corrected) that for a given rigidity, aluminium box section comes out the same weight (pretty much) as steel. The steel box section is thinner, as steel is stiffer than aluminium.As for the epoxy adhesive (again, I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong), it's used to give greater sheer strength than bolting/welding at a cheaper production cost. Weight doesn't come into it for the Elise chassis.
I was always under the impression that the aluminium/epoxy tech was all about making short production runs of a relatively complex chassis (curved box sections!) economically viable. As such, it didn't bring that much to the table over the older Esprit chassis in terms of weight.
Tuna said:
I want a Lotus that sells well enough to let the company do well, and produce more exciting, rewarding cars. So, I don't give a monkeys about a completely artificial weight limit (why not worry about it being under 2000 lbs?) - I care that the car is a pleasure to own and drive.
That's it in a nutshell. Now where's that roadgoing Exige V6 convertible with 2 seats, a nice reliable Toyota engine and fine lotus handling?Ozzie Osmond said:
Tuna said:
I want a Lotus that sells well enough to let the company do well, and produce more exciting, rewarding cars. So, I don't give a monkeys about a completely artificial weight limit (why not worry about it being under 2000 lbs?) - I care that the car is a pleasure to own and drive.
That's it in a nutshell. Now where's that roadgoing Exige V6 convertible with 2 seats, a nice reliable Toyota engine and fine lotus handling?Use the Evora as a test-bed for the new Esprit, but until that's fully ready (next year, apparently), make the Exige the main focus of the range.
Tuna said:
RYH64E said:
That will be the light weight aluminium chassis? The one that uses epoxy adhesives to further reduce the weight that would have resulted from increasing the extrusion thickness to allow for welding?
As far as I'm aware (and I'm happy to be corrected) that for a given rigidity, aluminium box section comes out the same weight (pretty much) as steel. The steel box section is thinner, as steel is stiffer than aluminium.As for the epoxy adhesive (again, I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong), it's used to give greater sheer strength than bolting/welding at a cheaper production cost. Weight doesn't come into it for the Elise chassis.
I was always under the impression that the aluminium/epoxy tech was all about making short production runs of a relatively complex chassis (curved box sections!) economically viable. As such, it didn't bring that much to the table over the older Esprit chassis in terms of weight.
According to my Elise book, the chassis designer (Richard Rackham) calculated that wall thickness of the aluminium extrusions would have to be 6mm for a welded chassis compared to 2.5mm for a bonded chassis, due to loss of strength in the heat affected zone and localised stresses in welded joints rather than distributed stresses in bonded joints. Apparently, the aluminium chassis of the contemporary Renault Sport Spider weighed twice as much as the S1 Elise chassis due to it's welded construction.
So, it turns out that there isn 't a fire sale etc as I thought, we shall see. Please stop the doom mongering and get behind them....
Here is the latest interview with DB via EVO:
By Harry Metcalfe
19th April 2012
Following on from last week's rumours of a crisis inside Lotus, evo has scored an exclusive interview with company CEO Dany Bahar...
What’s the current situation at Lotus?
From where we were when we last spoke six weeks ago, it has definitely changed for the better and over the last few days, Lotus has received enough funding from Proton to resume production. This process started on the 1st April and by the 1st May, I expect we will be back to producing around 44 cars a day.
Are all Lotus models going back into production at the same time?
First will be the Elise, then the Evoras and finally the Exige S. We have 1162 orders to fill [189 Elise, 156 Elise S, 350 Exige S, 182 Evora and 250 Evora GTE models] - which is incredible.
Have you had many cancellations?
Very few, actually... [Bahar claims it's just 18] - It again shows the trust in the brand and more importantly, the excitement in our product, even though we are three months late.
Does this mean the five-year development plan is back on track?
No, DRM-Hicom have not accepted it yet - but they have conducted a deep analysis of Lotus over the last three months, that included using external consultants. Once they have read all the reports and analysed the contents, they will make their decision.
The last time we spoke you put this at 50:50, has that changed?
I still don’t have a feel for what DRB-Hicom will do because they are the shareholders and we simply run the operation for Proton. But after their recent visit to the factory, I think they now appreciate the level of commitment inside Lotus to achieve something special and - perhaps more importantly - the capability within this company to deliver it. The amount of work we have done in the last 18 months was a real surprise to them and this has added a lot of shareholder value. However, it only gives you a return if you continue to invest and that’s what I don’t know yet.
How long will this process take?
It’s a big decision for them to make, so I suspect it won’t be made for some time but I hope we will know by the end of May.
Until that decision is made, can you to work normally?
The accelerator is not fully pressed but at least we are not like we were three months ago when we had no funding to work on the new projects. We are getting future funding but just in little bits and pieces, so we have not got 12 month visibility, just a few months at the moment. But this is so much better than it was before. The main funding will go in line with DRB-Hicom’s decision to either find a new owner, partner or with them offering full financial support.
So DRB-Hicom could sell a share in Lotus?
Yes, that could happen. I think the new owners are considering all their options and what they have in hand and if there is someone to help them on their way, then they could consider selling a proportion of Lotus.
If DRB-Hicom decided to sell Lotus to a foreign buyer, do you think the factory could move abroad?
There has been some speculation about this but look at the recent purchase of Volvo by the Chinese. They never considered moving Volvo to China and the company is doing very well now. With Lotus only building 2000 to 3000 cars a year, it would make even less sense to move Lotus to another location. Imagine the Chinese or Americans buying Ferrari, no one would ever consider moving the Ferrari factory abroad and it would be the same for Lotus.”
Do you think HRM-Hicom actively want to sell Lotus?
No, if they were looking for a fire sale, it would have happened months ago. I also believe they would not have taken this much care and time in the due diligence process - or hired the consultants - if they didn’t want to understand the business. There was never any thought of administration either because it doesn’t make any sense.
Is your contract with Lotus as CEO unchanged?
Yes; all the employment contracts with the senior personnel at Lotus are unchanged, including mine. We will show you two new Lotus cars at Goodwood in July and these are really fun. We want to show Lotus is going in one direction, going upwards, and not being distracted by this shareholder discussion. That’s very important, especially to everyone working at Lotus.
Here is the latest interview with DB via EVO:
By Harry Metcalfe
19th April 2012
Following on from last week's rumours of a crisis inside Lotus, evo has scored an exclusive interview with company CEO Dany Bahar...
What’s the current situation at Lotus?
From where we were when we last spoke six weeks ago, it has definitely changed for the better and over the last few days, Lotus has received enough funding from Proton to resume production. This process started on the 1st April and by the 1st May, I expect we will be back to producing around 44 cars a day.
Are all Lotus models going back into production at the same time?
First will be the Elise, then the Evoras and finally the Exige S. We have 1162 orders to fill [189 Elise, 156 Elise S, 350 Exige S, 182 Evora and 250 Evora GTE models] - which is incredible.
Have you had many cancellations?
Very few, actually... [Bahar claims it's just 18] - It again shows the trust in the brand and more importantly, the excitement in our product, even though we are three months late.
Does this mean the five-year development plan is back on track?
No, DRM-Hicom have not accepted it yet - but they have conducted a deep analysis of Lotus over the last three months, that included using external consultants. Once they have read all the reports and analysed the contents, they will make their decision.
The last time we spoke you put this at 50:50, has that changed?
I still don’t have a feel for what DRB-Hicom will do because they are the shareholders and we simply run the operation for Proton. But after their recent visit to the factory, I think they now appreciate the level of commitment inside Lotus to achieve something special and - perhaps more importantly - the capability within this company to deliver it. The amount of work we have done in the last 18 months was a real surprise to them and this has added a lot of shareholder value. However, it only gives you a return if you continue to invest and that’s what I don’t know yet.
How long will this process take?
It’s a big decision for them to make, so I suspect it won’t be made for some time but I hope we will know by the end of May.
Until that decision is made, can you to work normally?
The accelerator is not fully pressed but at least we are not like we were three months ago when we had no funding to work on the new projects. We are getting future funding but just in little bits and pieces, so we have not got 12 month visibility, just a few months at the moment. But this is so much better than it was before. The main funding will go in line with DRB-Hicom’s decision to either find a new owner, partner or with them offering full financial support.
So DRB-Hicom could sell a share in Lotus?
Yes, that could happen. I think the new owners are considering all their options and what they have in hand and if there is someone to help them on their way, then they could consider selling a proportion of Lotus.
If DRB-Hicom decided to sell Lotus to a foreign buyer, do you think the factory could move abroad?
There has been some speculation about this but look at the recent purchase of Volvo by the Chinese. They never considered moving Volvo to China and the company is doing very well now. With Lotus only building 2000 to 3000 cars a year, it would make even less sense to move Lotus to another location. Imagine the Chinese or Americans buying Ferrari, no one would ever consider moving the Ferrari factory abroad and it would be the same for Lotus.”
Do you think HRM-Hicom actively want to sell Lotus?
No, if they were looking for a fire sale, it would have happened months ago. I also believe they would not have taken this much care and time in the due diligence process - or hired the consultants - if they didn’t want to understand the business. There was never any thought of administration either because it doesn’t make any sense.
Is your contract with Lotus as CEO unchanged?
Yes; all the employment contracts with the senior personnel at Lotus are unchanged, including mine. We will show you two new Lotus cars at Goodwood in July and these are really fun. We want to show Lotus is going in one direction, going upwards, and not being distracted by this shareholder discussion. That’s very important, especially to everyone working at Lotus.
This is very good news - if it was just some press release I'd be sceptical, but this is Steve Cropley we're talking about and he's trustworthy.
I get the sense that Bahar realises his grand new plan is a little over-ambitious. Given the orders they've attracted, I think their Geneva appearance may have given them more of a boost than they expected (and they simply have to build the Exige Roadster now). Wonder what the new models showcased at Goodwood will be? Wouldn't be surprised if there was an Evora ragtop and a bonkers 340R/2-Eleven-style car, hopefully alongside the first production Exige Roadsters.
However, what interests me most about this interview is the notion that Hicom may sell a proportion of shares. I do hope someone like Toyota or Nissan takes this up, strong, successful firms who have used Lotus engineering to great effect themselves and know what they're buying into.
I get the sense that Bahar realises his grand new plan is a little over-ambitious. Given the orders they've attracted, I think their Geneva appearance may have given them more of a boost than they expected (and they simply have to build the Exige Roadster now). Wonder what the new models showcased at Goodwood will be? Wouldn't be surprised if there was an Evora ragtop and a bonkers 340R/2-Eleven-style car, hopefully alongside the first production Exige Roadsters.
However, what interests me most about this interview is the notion that Hicom may sell a proportion of shares. I do hope someone like Toyota or Nissan takes this up, strong, successful firms who have used Lotus engineering to great effect themselves and know what they're buying into.
Car maker Lotus in talks on sale to China, MP reveals
BBC said:
Car maker Lotus in talks on sale to China, MP reveals
The owners of sports car maker Lotus, which employs 1,200 staff, are in talks with a Chinese firm about a possible sale, an MP has revealed.
Richard Bacon MP has raised concerns a sale of the Norfolk-based firm could lead to jobs being moved to China.
Mr Bacon, South Norfolk MP, told the House of Commons consultancy firm KPMG "has been appointed with a mandate" to sell Group Lotus to the Chinese.
Lotus, which is owned by Proton, part of DRB-Hicom, has not commented.
The owners of sports car maker Lotus, which employs 1,200 staff, are in talks with a Chinese firm about a possible sale, an MP has revealed.
Richard Bacon MP has raised concerns a sale of the Norfolk-based firm could lead to jobs being moved to China.
Mr Bacon, South Norfolk MP, told the House of Commons consultancy firm KPMG "has been appointed with a mandate" to sell Group Lotus to the Chinese.
Lotus, which is owned by Proton, part of DRB-Hicom, has not commented.
BBC reporting that it may be being sold to a Chinese company:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-17834...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-17834...
carl_w said:
BBC reporting that it may be being sold to a Chinese company:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-17834...
Oh fer feck's sake. Why can't they sell Lotus to a company that actually understands it?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-17834...
Curiouser and curiouser.........
http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/2012/04/26/analysi...
"It’s enough to make you think the rumors about Fernandes taking control of Proton and Lotus were true, including the ongoing ones about Bahar’s demands to remain CEO of the Fernandes-run Lotus and personally own nearly 20% of the company. (Fernandes apparently said “no” and the Group Lotus/Team Lotus lawsuit followed, say a number of insiders.) Then again, who knows? It’s all so very murky."
http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/2012/04/26/analysi...
"It’s enough to make you think the rumors about Fernandes taking control of Proton and Lotus were true, including the ongoing ones about Bahar’s demands to remain CEO of the Fernandes-run Lotus and personally own nearly 20% of the company. (Fernandes apparently said “no” and the Group Lotus/Team Lotus lawsuit followed, say a number of insiders.) Then again, who knows? It’s all so very murky."
Harji said:
Lotus has an image of 'kit car' to me. They may be fast and great to drive, but raided spare parts bins in the past and do they still source Toyota engines and gearboxes? If they really want to play with the big boys they need to change all that.
So you approve of Lotus's new V8 engine, and despise Porsche, Lamborgini and Ferrari for raiding the parts bin of lesser cars?Remind me who the "big boys" are?
Captain Muppet said:
Harji said:
Lotus has an image of 'kit car' to me. They may be fast and great to drive, but raided spare parts bins in the past and do they still source Toyota engines and gearboxes? If they really want to play with the big boys they need to change all that.
So you approve of Lotus's new V8 engine, and despise Porsche, Lamborgini and Ferrari for raiding the parts bin of lesser cars?Remind me who the "big boys" are?
People like me grew up wanting one car, a white Lotus Esprit. I'm fortunate enough to buy quite a few desirable cars but not one Lotus is on my list. They never really got themselves in the public eye and they always had an image issue, Loads of trouble..... Raiders of the Spare Parts.
Harji said:
Captain Muppet said:
Harji said:
Lotus has an image of 'kit car' to me. They may be fast and great to drive, but raided spare parts bins in the past and do they still source Toyota engines and gearboxes? If they really want to play with the big boys they need to change all that.
So you approve of Lotus's new V8 engine, and despise Porsche, Lamborgini and Ferrari for raiding the parts bin of lesser cars?Remind me who the "big boys" are?
People like me grew up wanting one car, a white Lotus Esprit. I'm fortunate enough to buy quite a few desirable cars but not one Lotus is on my list. They never really got themselves in the public eye and they always had an image issue, Loads of trouble..... Raiders of the Spare Parts.
Also what's your view of Pagani? Nasty kit car?
Is this sort of thing only OK if the company makes lots of money doing it?
Captain Muppet said:
Is rebadging an entire VW Toureg as a Porsche really less obvious parts bin raiding than using someone else's engine?
Also what's your view of Pagani? Nasty kit car?
Is this sort of thing only OK if the company makes lots of money doing it?
Is it the Pagani that is basically a Rover45 heater control panel with a car built around it?Also what's your view of Pagani? Nasty kit car?
Is this sort of thing only OK if the company makes lots of money doing it?
DonkeyApple said:
Captain Muppet said:
Is rebadging an entire VW Toureg as a Porsche really less obvious parts bin raiding than using someone else's engine?
Also what's your view of Pagani? Nasty kit car?
Is this sort of thing only OK if the company makes lots of money doing it?
Is it the Pagani that is basically a Rover45 heater control panel with a car built around it?Also what's your view of Pagani? Nasty kit car?
Is this sort of thing only OK if the company makes lots of money doing it?
It seems a weird double standard that companies can only get away with this sort of thing if the charge a f
k-ton of money for the cars. Make them cheap and people get all sniffy.I don't care where the bits are from as long as the car is amazing to drive.
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