RE: Is Lotus in proper bother this time?
Discussion
EK993 said:
MX7 said:
I'm not sure I understand your point. Surely of his time at Lotus has, in effect, been passive, then hasn't he failed in quite a big way?
odyssey2200 said:
bqf said:
Thats just 'An Impossible Dream'
and what would Honda gain from buying Lotus?apart from a huge debt?
However, since you asked:
1. Genuine Motorsport heritage
2. A powerful brand, revered by many
3. Some of the worlds best chassis designers and engineers
They clearly wouldn't buy it with £200m of debt, but if it went through a 'pre-pack' administration, it could be a nice addition to the Honda stable. Honda make great engines, Lotus do the handling - sounds like a match made in heaven to me.
EK993 said:
Would their position have been any more attractive had they just plodded on with the Elise / Exige / Evora and Danny et al hand't got involved though?
Yes. They still wouldn't have been in great shape but wouldn't have accumulated millions in debt hiring the 'Bahar's All Stars' management team, F1 sponsorship, attending all the motor shows with nothing to sell and developing doomed pie-in-the-sky concepts. Also the brand value, dealer network and commercial reputation is now trashed almost to an unrecoverable point.In retrospect maybe the Swizzle Beatz and Mansory things were just black humour from a PR team who knew they were doomed and wanted to give Sniff Petrol some more ammo?!
Anyway, as widely predicted the whole thing was a nonsense ego-trip for an ex-Ferrari exec trying to win an industry willy-waving competition.
clanger said:
It pains me to say this but Lotus appears currently unattractive to any potential buyer.
It's current product range consists of the overpriced, unloved by the buying public Evora, the outdated Elise which despite constant facelifts and 'improvements' is now slower than ever and the yet to appear (to the general public) V6 Exige. The much 'marketed' new cars appear miles away from production. This coupled with the £200 million debt (and no doubt rising) doesn't make for a great investment.
Thank goodness Lotus Engineering would form part of any aquisition, - or would it??
Oh Danny boy - the pipes are calling...
Might be a stupid question but why is the Evora such a failure. Isn't it supposed to be sublime in the critical handling/ride department? A difficult trick to pull off. And wasn't there a much-needed supercharged version? It's current product range consists of the overpriced, unloved by the buying public Evora, the outdated Elise which despite constant facelifts and 'improvements' is now slower than ever and the yet to appear (to the general public) V6 Exige. The much 'marketed' new cars appear miles away from production. This coupled with the £200 million debt (and no doubt rising) doesn't make for a great investment.
Thank goodness Lotus Engineering would form part of any aquisition, - or would it??
Oh Danny boy - the pipes are calling...
A realistic 2 car dream garage for me would include a Lotus; a supercharged Exige and an E92 M3.
torres del paine said:
Might be a stupid question but why is the Evora such a failure. Isn't it supposed to be sublime in the critical handling/ride department? A difficult trick to pull off. And wasn't there a much-needed supercharged version?
A realistic 2 car dream garage for me would include a Lotus; a supercharged Exige and an E92 M3.
Price. It's priced way above the market's perceived "correct" price point for Lotus.A realistic 2 car dream garage for me would include a Lotus; a supercharged Exige and an E92 M3.
torres del paine said:
clanger said:
It pains me to say this but Lotus appears currently unattractive to any potential buyer.
It's current product range consists of the overpriced, unloved by the buying public Evora, the outdated Elise which despite constant facelifts and 'improvements' is now slower than ever and the yet to appear (to the general public) V6 Exige. The much 'marketed' new cars appear miles away from production. This coupled with the £200 million debt (and no doubt rising) doesn't make for a great investment.
Thank goodness Lotus Engineering would form part of any aquisition, - or would it??
Oh Danny boy - the pipes are calling...
Might be a stupid question but why is the Evora such a failure. It's current product range consists of the overpriced, unloved by the buying public Evora, the outdated Elise which despite constant facelifts and 'improvements' is now slower than ever and the yet to appear (to the general public) V6 Exige. The much 'marketed' new cars appear miles away from production. This coupled with the £200 million debt (and no doubt rising) doesn't make for a great investment.
Thank goodness Lotus Engineering would form part of any aquisition, - or would it??
Oh Danny boy - the pipes are calling...
torres del paine said:
Might be a stupid question but why is the Evora such a failure. Isn't it supposed to be sublime in the critical handling/ride department? A difficult trick to pull off. And wasn't there a much-needed supercharged version?
For most buyers, especially in that price bracket, the handling/ride isn't critical, unfortunately. And yes, it is excellent in that department and there is a supercharged version.bqf said:
odyssey2200 said:
bqf said:
Thats just 'An Impossible Dream'
and what would Honda gain from buying Lotus?apart from a huge debt?
However, since you asked:
1. Genuine Motorsport heritage Honda already has one, particularly in the States
2. A powerful brand, revered by many Not actually worth anything. It certainly hasn't helped has it?
3. Some of the worlds best chassis designers and engineers Honda doesn't need to but Lotus for that. It built the NSX in 1990 and it could but in anything it wanted for far less that £200 million
They clearly wouldn't buy it with £200m of debt, but if it went through a 'pre-pack' administration, it could be a nice addition to the Honda stable. Honda make great engines, Lotus do the handling - sounds like a match made in heaven to me.
I suspect that Youngman will try to do what the Chinese do best.
Drag out negotiations until the patient dies and then buy what it wants for next to nothing.
It will then move the lot to China where it will become a worthless POS.
RIP Lotus
bqf said:
Greg_D said:
bqf said:
Honda make great engines, Lotus do the handling - sounds like a match made in heaven to me.
do they??? Name a great CURRENT honda engine!I'll spell it out for you. If honda were to buy lotus and co-develop a car, they would need to put a current engine in it, and since the 2.0 N/A vtec engine is now defunct, i am interested to know which of their current range you would suggest as being market leading and appropriate for a lightweight road car???
The only thing Bahar is guilty of is perhaps prolonging Lotus' suffering.
He was overly ambitious. Deep down he knew their best shot was to come out with this highly improbable but very impressive business plan. He later admitted they showed too many concepts, too soon. Which is true, if he'd unveiled a couple of new cars right now, at Geneva, it would have boosted Lotus' chances in securing a new buyer. He should have held his cards closer to his chest, but then hindsight is 20/20. You really can't blame him for what the owners are doing in Malaysia.
So what if Bahar had not taken the helm. In all probability a faceless suited puppet controlled by a clutch of secretive businessmen would have taken over, in the interim at least. There would be no buzz around the brand, and no particular movement in the 'right' direction, or indeed any direction. Lotus would have ended up with more debt, having been covertly asset stripped, and valued lower as a result.
Lotus would have embodied a dead man walking. There's still hope.
Obviously I'm just thinking out loud. The best scenario would have been if Lotus had hired a hero. Someone who could save the brand, lessen the debt, make it profitable, secure a shed load of investors AND find a credible new owner.
He was overly ambitious. Deep down he knew their best shot was to come out with this highly improbable but very impressive business plan. He later admitted they showed too many concepts, too soon. Which is true, if he'd unveiled a couple of new cars right now, at Geneva, it would have boosted Lotus' chances in securing a new buyer. He should have held his cards closer to his chest, but then hindsight is 20/20. You really can't blame him for what the owners are doing in Malaysia.
So what if Bahar had not taken the helm. In all probability a faceless suited puppet controlled by a clutch of secretive businessmen would have taken over, in the interim at least. There would be no buzz around the brand, and no particular movement in the 'right' direction, or indeed any direction. Lotus would have ended up with more debt, having been covertly asset stripped, and valued lower as a result.
Lotus would have embodied a dead man walking. There's still hope.
Obviously I'm just thinking out loud. The best scenario would have been if Lotus had hired a hero. Someone who could save the brand, lessen the debt, make it profitable, secure a shed load of investors AND find a credible new owner.
Edited by Hellbound on Wednesday 11th April 14:44
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