RE: Driven: Lotus Elise S

[kambites]

jason61c said:

No I mean all parts bought in except the body, Assembled with varying quality depending on the what mood the guy doing the job is in.

Ah, OK. Again, I fail to see why that would push the price down rather than up, considering you're essentially paying two people's profits rather than just one.

Elise assembly quality is fairly consistent these days, even compared to the big manufacturers. The problem is, it's consistently not very good.

[Dave Hedgehog]

kambites said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

kambites said:

Low development costs?!? The development cost per unit sold (which is all that matters) on the Elise will be vastly higher than on anything that the mainstream manufacturers produce.

this will be true, even thou the R only shifts in the 1000s its still a huge number compared to the elise S

regardless 36k for a play thing no matter how superb is an awful lot

Each to their own I guess. 36k for what is constantly rated as one of the best drivers' cars ever seems like an absolute bargain to me. 30k on a hatchback, on the other hand, seems utter lunacy.

it comes down to amount of time used I guess, most people are not masochistic enough to use an elise everyday, you certainly cant get the family, shopping, old people, fat people in it so for most people its going to be used an hour or two at the weekend, with the odd away trip and hibernated over the winter.

a hatchback could be used 2-3 hours a day, cost per hour used would be vastly better

[kambites]

Dave Hedgehog said:

fibreglass, its light but has zero structural integrity in a crash

Since when has the body of any car played a significant role in crash safety? The crash strength comes from the chassis/tub/space-frame/whatever your car has and the bolted on sacrificial crash structures.

For what it's worth, I think fibreglass is actually better per unit mass at energy absorption than sheet steel, although it's still pretty rubbish.

[Twincam16]

jason61c said:

No I mean all parts bought in except the body, Assembled with varying quality depending on the what mood the guy doing the job is in.

Fit and finish of a well done kit car basically, where's the 37k's worth in it? low production of this car is more due to the cost of the thing to buy new, i'm sure if it was 20k they'd sell 100's a year. I'm not slating the car at all, they're great things but 37k great? I guess that depends on how much money you've got to slosh around.

Lotus also makes the chassis, and a fair bit more I'd imagine.

You'd also be surprised what quite a lot of mainstream manufacturers buy in. Most electrical widgets, for example - manufactured elsewhere, integrated into the car. Same goes for brakes, gearboxes, wheels, glass, seat housings - all sorts of things are manufactured by dedicated separate companies working in co-operation with the big car firms.

[kambites]

Dave Hedgehog said:

it comes down to amount of time used I guess, most people are not masochistic enough to use an elise everyday, you certainly cant get the family, shopping, old people, fat people in it so for most people its going to be used an hour or two at the weekend, with the odd away trip and hibernated over the winter.

a hatchback could be used 2-3 hours a day, cost per hour used would be vastly better

So now the value of a car is defined as the cost per hour you can bear to spend in it?

Lets be honest, no performance/fun/sports/luxury car ever seems good value when looked at purely rationally - we'd all be driving Kia C'eeds if that was what mattered.

ETA: For what it's worth, I think the majority of Elises are used as daily drivers, at least in the summer.

Edited by kambites on Monday 30th April 13:14

[Twincam16]

kambites said:

For what it's worth, I think fibreglass is actually better per unit mass at energy absorption than sheet steel, although it's still pretty rubbish.

It is. Micron-for-micron it has better torsional strength than mild sheet steel.

I also think a lot of people would be surprised as to how much glassfibre there was in their car. De Havilland realised how good it was during the war and aircraft have been using it in places people might have thought 'vulnerable' for decades, because it's light and strong, and can be moulded in varying thickness depending on what's required.

It's the frame its all attached to that's the most important bit - and this is a lesson learned through motorsport. The bit around the occupants has to be strong, everything else has to be light and aerodynamic. That's how you make an advanced car. And also another reason why SUVs are practically anti-engineering when you consider the evolution of car construction over the preceding 70-odd years.

[Dave Hedgehog]

kambites said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

fibreglass, its light but has zero structural integrity in a crash

Since when has the body of any car played a significant role in crash safety? The crash strength comes from the chassis/tub/space-frame/whatever your car has and the bolted on sacrificial crash structures.

For what it's worth, I think fibreglass is actually better per unit mass at energy absorption than sheet steel, although it's still pretty rubbish.

i was thinking more along the terms of light damage as well as ohhhhh f*** moments, easy to bend and fill metal, the body on the elise is a single piece bonded to the tub?

i just wonder how many potential customers there are for it costing so much, luckily thou the boxster is getting incredibly expensive as well which may help lotus

[Dave Hedgehog]

kambites said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

it comes down to amount of time used I guess, most people are not masochistic enough to use an elise everyday, you certainly cant get the family, shopping, old people, fat people in it so for most people its going to be used an hour or two at the weekend, with the odd away trip and hibernated over the winter.

a hatchback could be used 2-3 hours a day, cost per hour used would be vastly better

So now the value of a car is defined as the cost per hour you can bear to spend in it?

Lets be honest, no performance/fun/sports/luxury car ever seems good value when looked at purely rationally - we'd all be driving Kia C'eeds if that was what mattered.

for many people that is a valid part of there internal justification when making a major purchase, how much they are going to use it, the avg 35k golf gti user will put 10 times the amount of hours used in it than the avg elise driver, so it will be in terms of usage vastly better value

[Mr E]

tommobot said:

0-100mph 7.2 second?

That seems bloody quick! Is that correct?

Indeed. Shatteringly fast, even.
11 ish (as discussed by other posters) seems rather more likely.

[kambites]

Dave Hedgehog said:

i was thinking more along the terms of light damage as well as ohhhhh f*** moments, easy to bend and fill metal, the body on the elise is a single piece bonded to the tub?

i just wonder how many potential customers there are for it costing so much, luckily thou the boxster is getting incredibly expensive as well which may help lotus

It is a problem with it comes to very low speed collisions. The Elise's tub will survive higher speed impacts than almost any mainstream car without damage because the crash structure is a glued on sacrificial unit which can be replaced and there is nothing structural in front of the front axle line. However, the body gets damaged very easily and is quite expensive to replace, which doesn't help insurance costs.

I hit something at about walking pace a couple of years ago and the total repair bill came to about seven grand.


Still, there are few things I'd rather hit a solid object in at speed than an Elise. The last thing you want in a head-on is an engine eating into the available crumple space between you and whatever you hit. Of course low weight is a disadvantage in a collision with another movable object, but there's not much you can do about that unless you're willing to drive a tank just in case you crash.

Edited by kambites on Monday 30th April 13:23

[kambites]

Dave Hedgehog said:

for many people that is a valid part of there internal justification when making a major purchase, how much they are going to use it, the avg 35k golf gti user will put 10 times the amount of hours used in it than the avg elise driver, so it will be in terms of usage vastly better value

That's a slight exaggeration. I think Elises cover an average of about 5k miles a year, and Golf GTis probably about 10k.

[Thorburn]

Dave Hedgehog said:

i was thinking more along the terms of light damage as well as ohhhhh f*** moments, easy to bend and fill metal, the body on the elise is a single piece bonded to the tub?

The sills and B-pillars are bonded on, the front and rear clamshells, doors and A-panels aren't. I can imagine the lack of bumpers can be a bit frustrating though.

[Dave Hedgehog]

kambites said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

for many people that is a valid part of there internal justification when making a major purchase, how much they are going to use it, the avg 35k golf gti user will put 10 times the amount of hours used in it than the avg elise driver, so it will be in terms of usage vastly better value

That's a slight exaggeration. I think Elises cover an average of about 5k miles a year, and Golf GTis probably about 10k.

wow i am surprised its that much, S&M scene must be more common than i expected

although I think time in the car is more relevant, I only travel about 14k miles a year in my Golf but I spend about 800 hours a year in it!!! because my avg speed in london is sub 10mph

[kambites]

I certainly wouldn't buy an Elise to drive in London.

Actually I could expand that to "I certainly wouldn't drive in London".


On the roads I regularly use, I suspect a Golf would be far more torturous than and Elise. Whilst it's possible to have fun in any car, driving on nice roads day in day out in a family hatchback would drive me mad.

[Captain Muppet]

Dave Hedgehog said:

i was thinking more along the terms of light damage as well as ohhhhh f*** moments, easy to bend and fill metal, the body on the elise is a single piece bonded to the tub?

Not only can you fill GRP, but it won't rust afterwards like a steel panel repaired with filler.

Also you can (if you aren't getting it fixed on your insurance and you want to save money) bond all the broken bits back together. My GRP front bumper on my MX5 has been smashed in to five or six bits. I've just bonded it all totgether, slapped some Kevlar tape on the back and skimmed over it with filler. Good as new (well, slightly heavier, but fixed for nearly free rather than needing a new panel).

[Dave Hedgehog]

kambites said:

I certainly wouldn't buy an Elise to drive in London.

Actually I could expand that to "I certainly wouldn't drive in London".

if i had a decent train connection and my ticket wasn't nearly 5k a year i probably wouldn't either

[kambites]

Dave Hedgehog said:

kambites said:

I certainly wouldn't buy an Elise to drive in London.

Actually I could expand that to "I certainly wouldn't drive in London".

if i had a decent train connection and my ticket wasn't nearly 5k a year i probably wouldn't either

OK I'll expand it even further to "I certainly wouldn't go to London".

[Dave Hedgehog]

Captain Muppet said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

i was thinking more along the terms of light damage as well as ohhhhh f*** moments, easy to bend and fill metal, the body on the elise is a single piece bonded to the tub?

Not only can you fill GRP, but it won't rust afterwards like a steel panel repaired with filler.

Also you can (if you aren't getting it fixed on your insurance and you want to save money) bond all the broken bits back together. My GRP front bumper on my MX5 has been smashed in to five or six bits. I've just bonded it all totgether, slapped some Kevlar tape on the back and skimmed over it with filler. Good as new (well, slightly heavier, but fixed for nearly free rather than needing a new panel).

but would someone with a 35k car accept a repair like that or would an insurance company approve a repair like that?

[Dave Hedgehog]

kambites said:

OK I'll expand it even further to "I certainly wouldn't go to London".

[kambites]

I can't help but feel that anyone who buys a car on the basis of how much it'll cost to fix when they crash it, is probably approaching the whole "driving" thing wrong anyway.