RE: Time for Tea? BR-Z and GT-86 take on MX-5

[Chunkychucky]

lgomgf said:

MarkRSi said:

Could someone point me towards a new RWD 2+2 coupe with more than 200bhp for around £25k or less?

http://cdn.volkswagen.co.uk/new/scirocco/home

Sciroccos available in rear wheel drive now..?

Toyota looks the more fun of the two 'Toyobaru' cars, be interesting to read more of the differences in suspension set-ups chosen by the two manufacturers.

[GravelBen]

Rawwr said:

Reading threads like this makes me feel like I'm imbibing a wheelbarrow full of liquid human faeces through my eyeballs.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

[AndrewW-G]

lgomgf said:

MarkRSi said:

Could someone point me towards a new RWD 2+2 coupe with more than 200bhp for around £25k or less?

http://cdn.volkswagen.co.uk/new/scirocco/home

Is that not FWD . . . . .

[sanctum]

Disappointing vid to be honest. The driver of the BRZ is being very very cautious, backing off before braking and has left the ESP on full as it is cutting his power every time he lights up the rears out of a corner.
The GT-86 driver is doing much better and even gets to turn everything off and be a bit silly in the last lap. with sideways stuff like that the BRZ should have been past in two corners.

How many true 2+2 rear drive coupes are on the market as competition to this pair?

[rich_y2]

I think those concerned about the lap times and difference in lap time against an MX-5 are missing the point of the car(s) and are unlikely to be target owners, in an era of big hp, V6's then any normally aspirated engined car is going to be focused on driver feedback and enjoyment.The Clio 200 is one of the best examples of this, under powered compared to probably all it's peers yet it offers the purest form of hot hatchery and has consistently been at the top of the tree in its market sector.

To me it's quite clear that the handling between the Toyota and Subaru's is completely different to the sloppy MX-5 giving far better body control and what looks to be better feel through the steering wheel with far more consistent inputs allowed, the MX-5 clearly having a tenancy for a touch of entry under steer. I own a 2011 MX-5 having bought into the heritage and reviews of a rwd roadster, it even test drove well, but sadly even in decent spec which includes the supposedly stiffer Bilsteins and an LSD I find it an incredibly unrewarding car to drive on British roads, it simply isn't setup to cope with them. You can't seemingly get the body control from a roadster or soft top so I see no reason why it would even come close to these new models on an actual road, lap times might be close but I reckon the driver enjoyment and capability day to day would be a completely different league.

Personally I'm really pleased a car manufacturer has had the balls to make something like this, you don't need 300 hp to have fun in a car on the road, not for me anyway...a well sorted chassis, sweet gear change, good steering feel and great seating position are the keys for me, oh and enough power for fun, but that's just me perhaps.

[s m]

cheddar said:

MarkRSi said:

Could someone point me towards a new RWD 2+2 coupe with more than 200bhp for around £25k or less?

25k will buy you a brand new M Spec BMW 125i.

Is that with a discount? They only seem to list the M-sport one now at £27365 on the Autocar price list.

[300bhp/ton]

mikearwas said:

Am I the only one that thinks 25k is an awful lot of money for one of these?

I too think it's a lot, but more because it will prevent many would be buyers from even affording one. It should be seen as an alternative to a hot hatch, not a budget Porker/Elise, but at £25k it really doesn't compete money wise with other new cars of similar ilk. I wonder how much Toyota/Subaru will be targeting company car drivers though, the RX-8 seemed very popular in this regard (for some strange reason).

mikearwas said:

I would much much rather have a JCW mini or any of the other hyper hatches.

Nope not me. You don't look at this type of car with only HP in mind, it's the entire package of buying a RWD sports car that is driver focused. I agree some hatches would be alternatives, but in terms of thrills and driver focus I'd have though a Clio200 would be more a competitor and not a Golf GTI. The MINI is nice and I can see the appeal and the MINI Coupe might appear on my list of alternatives, but it's a very different type of car.

Put it this way, why would you have bought an RX-8 over a Focus ST? Many did and I still would. That's the difference with the GT86/BRZ.

mikearwas said:

Just think what you could get yourself on the used market.

Not really fair or useful though, being as you can buy a BMW M3 for half the cost of a budget Kia Picanto, i.e. the used market will always offer up something more for less, but it ain't gonna be new.

mikearwas said:

If they had been 18k they would be a massive success. 25k dream on! I think these could be a massive sales flop actually.

I guess time will tell, although the UK market in the past 20 years hasn't favoured coupes, in fact most have gone from the market completely and the ones sold in recent times where hardly good sellers.

If Toyota/Subaru reckon they can sell almost as many at £25k as they would at £18k, then it likely makes the model far more profitable in the UK market even if it means slightly lower total sales numbers.

[MX7]

HighwayStar said:

And? Australians pay way more for European cars than we do. Danes pay 300% tax on cars, used cars effectively cost more than new cars here. My point, who really knows how prices are worked out locally. Car prices have always been more favourable in the US. Local taxes etc all lead to variances. There isn't any point comparing one market with another.

It's nothing to do with taxes. It's a £10k difference.

[Captain Muppet]

KevSeymour said:

Roof up? -10 man points.

MX5? - all your man points.

FFS what is it with convertibalists that they have to judge people who have their roof up?

(feel free to check my garage before getting outraged)

[Kawasicki]

A good video..what I take from it;
Differences in drivers outweigh car differences
The higher powered cars have an advantage at higher speeds.
Toyobarus have less body roll and pretty tight roll control.

They all look like fun to drive, good job!

[RogueMotorsport]

sanctum said:

Disappointing vid to be honest. The driver of the BRZ is being very very cautious, backing off before braking and has left the ESP on full as it is cutting his power every time he lights up the rears out of a corner.
The GT-86 driver is doing much better and even gets to turn everything off and be a bit silly in the last lap. with sideways stuff like that the BRZ should have been past in two corners.

Both the 86 and BR-Z have traction control turned on - the activation light is clearly visible on the last lap. The only car that doesn't have it on is the MX5, as witnessed by the DSC OFF lamp. There's clearly a difference between the dynamics of the Toyota and Subaru, and the question is whether it is the driver or suspension set-up that is making it.

[HighwayStar]

A guy on the other the thread, BRZ vs GT 86 - price war, has pointed out the GT-86 is 38,000 GBP in Finland... No doubt prices jacked up by local taxes... Car prices in the UK are much lower here than they used to be compared to the rest of Europe. 18k would be fantastic but, 197bhp, 2+2 coupe... It's not gonna happen. Simply saying it should be £18k doesn't mean it should be.
And the guy who thought the Scirocco was read well drive!!! Just shows how much of this forum is waffle and people thinking the know what they are talking about.

[anonymous-user]

Nope...They still are not doing anything for me!

[StormLoaded]

MX7 said:

It's nothing to do with taxes. It's a £10k difference.

You know the specs are completely different right? The Toyota is being sold only as a scion in the states.
Scion = budget version, so cloth seats, key, no climate control, stereo from the 90s, no rear spoiler etc.
The uk is only getting the full 'premium' spec, climate, leather seats standard, keyless entry/push start, touch screen ice etc all as standard. (there are additional upgrade options - such as heated Alcantara seats but the uk base model is well spec'd from factory.)
Plus the 20%vat and god knows whatever import tax are probably higher for the uk.

[MX7]

StormLoaded said:

Scion = budget version, so cloth seats, key, no climate control, stereo from the 90s, no rear spoiler etc.

It's not a particularly base spec in the US.

Scion said:

INTERIOR/CONVENIENCE
2-YEARS or 25,000-MILES, WHICHEVER COMES FIRST, COMPLIMENTARY SCION SERVICE BOOST. 1VIEW DETAILS
AIR CONDITIONERVIEW DETAILS
POWER WINDOWS WITH ONE-TOUCH AUTO UP/DOWNVIEW DETAILS
SIMPLE SHUT WINDOWSVIEW DETAILS
POWER DOOR LOCKSVIEW DETAILS
REMOTE KEYLESS ENTRY SYSTEMVIEW DETAILS
ENGINE IMMOBILIZERVIEW DETAILS
REAR WINDOW DEFOGGERVIEW DETAILS
DIGITAL CLOCKVIEW DETAILS
MULTI-INFORMATION DISPLAYVIEW DETAILS
TACHOMETER & TRIP METERVIEW DETAILS
LEATHER-TRIMMED STEERING WHEELVIEW DETAILS
TILT/TELESCOPIC STEERING WHEELVIEW DETAILS
CRUISE CONTROLVIEW DETAILS
PADDLE SHIFTERS - AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONVIEW DETAILS
ALUMINUM SCUFF PLATESVIEW DETAILS
CARPET FLOOR MATSVIEW DETAILS
SPORT PEDALSVIEW DETAILS
FOLD-FLAT REAR SEATVIEW DETAILS
DUAL SUN VISORS WITH VANITY MIRRORSVIEW DETAILS
RED STITCHING / RED ACCENTSVIEW DETAILS
TEMPORARY SPARE TIREVIEW DETAILS
EXTERIOR
POWER OUTSIDE MIRRORSVIEW DETAILS
FOLDING SIDE MIRRORSVIEW DETAILS
VARIABLE INTERMITTENT FRONT WINDSHIELD WIPERSVIEW DETAILS
DUAL EXHAUSTVIEW DETAILS
PROJECTOR BEAM HEADLAMPSVIEW DETAILS
17" ALLOY WHEELSVIEW DETAILS
AUDIO
PIONEER™ STANDARD AUDIO SYSTEMVIEW DETAILS
BLUETOOTH® AND HD RADIO™ TECHNOLOGYVIEW DETAILS
USB Port with iPod® ConnectivityVIEW DETAILS
AUXILIARY AUDIO JACKVIEW DETAILS
8 SPEAKERSVIEW DETAILS
ROOF-MOUNTED ANTENNAVIEW DETAILS
SAFETY
Star Safety System™ - Vehicle Stability Control(VSC)VIEW DETAILS
Star Safety System™ - Traction Control (TRAC)VIEW DETAILS
Star Safety System™ - Anti-Lock Brake System (ABS)VIEW DETAILS
Star Safety System™ - Electronic Brake-Force Distribution (EBD) and Brake AssistVIEW DETAILS
Star Safety System™ - Smart Stop TechnologyVIEW DETAILS
Driver and Front Passenger Advanced Airbag SystemVIEW DETAILS
Driver and Front Passenger Seat-Mounted Side AirbagsVIEW DETAILS
Front and Rear Side Curtain AirbagsVIEW DETAILS
LATCH (LOWER ANCHORS AND TETHERS FOR CHILDREN)VIEW DETAILS
Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS)VIEW DETAILS
First Aid Kit

It does have climate and remote entry. I think you're confused with the poverty spec that they announced for the JDM.

[Johnboy Mac]

I reckon if BMW had produced a car with an almost identical spec & even with a slight premium added to the price, there wouldn't be a bad word said about it.

[Hip]

300bhp/ton said:

I wonder how much Toyota/Subaru will be targeting company car drivers though, the RX-8 seemed very popular in this regard (for some strange reason).

I believe that is down to company car rules with some providers. The car had to have 4/5 doors (however you count them) which ruled out some of the standard fun options however savvy employees went for the RX.

[oliver9523]

So we have...

Mazda - MX-5
Toyota - GT-86
Subaru - BRZ
Nissan - 370z
Honda - ???

New s2000 please.

It'll probably be more like S1600T or something

[s m]

Johnboy Mac said:

I reckon if BMW had produced a car with an almost identical spec & even with a slight premium added to the price, there wouldn't be a bad word said about it.

Closest they do in a similar vein is the 3 litre six in the 1 coupe. 215bhp but similar performance.
£2365 more than the important £25k mark

[anonymous-user]

s m said:

Closest they do in a similar vein is the 3 litre six in the 1 coupe. 215bhp but similar performance.
£2365 more than the important £25k mark

Probably worth a lot more come resale time however.