RE: Time for Tea? BR-Z and GT-86 take on MX-5

RE: Time for Tea? BR-Z and GT-86 take on MX-5

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Guibo

274 posts

264 months

Friday 4th May 2012
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356Speedster said:
I see where you're coming from now! However, it's never going to be that straightforward is it. We all judge perceived value differently, which is why (seeing as you bring them up), Porsche make huge margins on their cars. There's little complaint that a 911 should be significantly cheaper despite the significant unit margins they make (assuming the reports are true of course). If the twins really do only manage the sort of volumes currently anticipated, then sure anyone has a right to ask why, if they're meant to be so good?
You're right, there is little complaint that a 911 should be significantly cheaper when for the same price you can buy a GT-R that is objectively better/faster on many counts. Therefore, we can safely assume that a car's worth to the buying public at large does not rest on objective evaluation.
Why the low volume? First off, and as Chris Harris noted in an editorial, Subaru have a reputation based solidly around the benefits of AWD. Something they can't exactly claim that the BRZ has. Secondly, neither you nor I know what exactly is going on in the minds of Subaru's marketing department and where they want to position the car; supplying an automatic-equipped car to Evo has got to be one of the strangest moves I've ever seen from a company. Thirdly, it could be that they know the market is limited and have adjusted the price accordingly. This is from a Motor Trend report last year:
"Engineers were tight-lipped about exact production numbers, but they nodded in agreement when we coughed up a 3000-unit-per-year guess. That would put the BRZ in current WRX STI production territory, making it a low-volume niche car."
This was reported in drive.com.au:
"‘‘The size of this market is low volume,’ [manager for global marketing at Subaru, Atoshi Atake] says. ‘Without Toyota’s help it would have been hard to make a convincing case for this car.’"

The reality is that the market for this kind of car (extremely driver-focused) is limited. If you think otherwise, ask yourself why Renault even bother with a lower-spec Clio. Why not just make all of them Cups? The MX-5 saw peak new vehicle registrations at over 9300 units in 2007 In 2011, they had fallen to 3600. 370Z new registrations peaked at 789 units in 2010; last year they fell 49% to just over 400. Perhaps Subaru are watching this downturn in the segment and being properly cautious?

356Speedster said:
This video & the specs posted by Toyota on their website have made up my mind. It's just not quick enough. To see the twins against a car we used to own (MX5) is as good a yardstick as you can get. While the Mazda's chassis entertained (clearly the twin's will too, I've always praised that), it's pace annoyed. I will not pay £27K+ (it'd need metalic & leather to lift appearances) for a coupe equivilent to the Mazda, that I know will frustrate me.
Wait, what kind of performance were you expecting? From what I see of the video, the twins start 4-5 carlengths behind the Mazda and end up 20-30 carlengths ahead after 3 laps despite some oversteery showboating. How much faster than the Mazda were you really expecting the Toyota to be, and what information from Toyota suggested that either of these cars were going to be fast? It sounds to me like you were expecting a car that Toyota/Subaru never even suggested they would make; in fact, their repeated highlighting of fun and avoiding the pursuit of performance numbers should perhaps tell us not to expect something fast. From the way the drivers were laughing and giggling, it didn't seem like they were too disappointed.
Please link me to these multiple forum posts by Mazda owners who have driven either of the twins can have come away disappointed in the way it drives. You seem to suggest the forum is full of such people.

LukeyLikey

855 posts

146 months

Friday 4th May 2012
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It is not disappointing to drive. It's brilliant.

StormLoaded

889 posts

178 months

Wednesday 23rd May 2012
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Nice review from an Aussie magazine (on Japans twisties) comparing the GT86 v's Cayman.

- albeit the Porsche is an 8 year old platform that the magazine indicates is due to be replaced by a longer wheelbase version (that address' some of its minor flaws).. and will no doubt be a much better version, but still, good review all the same and the GT comes out well despite being slower

http://www.ft86club.com/?p=1671

MarkRSi

5,782 posts

217 months

Wednesday 23rd May 2012
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Evo have reviewed a GT86, manual version. They gave it four stars but say it's much better than the BRZ handling wise;

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65...

However while they still whinge about the lack of torque, they interesting say 'a Clio Cup - similar weight and power - feels much quicker'. While I think 200ish bhp (like my old Civic Type-R) would be perfect for this sort of car, I wonder if that flat four really does produce 197 ponies...?

Hopefully a full Autocar road test/Evo long termer will reveal more...

cheddar

4,637 posts

173 months

Wednesday 23rd May 2012
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MarkRSi said:
Evo have reviewed a GT86, manual version. They gave it four stars but say it's much better than the BRZ handling wise;

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65...

However while they still whinge about the lack of torque, they interesting say 'a Clio Cup - similar weight and power - feels much quicker'. While I think 200ish bhp (like my old Civic Type-R) would be perfect for this sort of car, I wonder if that flat four really does produce 197 ponies...?

Hopefully a full Autocar road test/Evo long termer will reveal more...
The Clio 200 is the real alternative to the BRZ and GT86.

Very similar approach - other than which wheels are driven - they have the same highly driver focused appeal, same low torque NA engine, same bhp, same low cost, frill free interior.

Clio is hailed as 'The GT3 of Hot Hatches' but costs 10k less.

MarkRSi

5,782 posts

217 months

Monday 9th July 2012
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Did anyone save a copy of the original video...?