RE: Unofficial Defender concept keeps it simple

[skyrover]

RoverP6B said:

skyrover said:

The problem is land rover have demonstrated that they don't know how to build a land rover.

I have little faith the replacement defender will be worthy.

Really? Lots of farmers here have current gen Discoveries and even Range Rovers and they're not abandoning them for Nissan Navaras. They're perfectly capable vehicles. You CANNOT get away with selling a basic beam-axle separate-chassos truck with a hose-out cabin any more. Nobody would buy it, farmers included.

Land Rover sells a consistent 16 thousand defenders every year, not climbing or falling, but steady. Clearly there is a market.

Obviously Jeep didn't know what they were doing when they released the new wrangler with twin live axles, body on frame construction and a hose out interior

http://www.autonews.com/article/20140303/RETAIL01/...

"Three Jeep vehicles, the Wrangler, Compass and Patriot, set February sales records"

You will probably find most farmers do not use land rover's other products for farm work other than towing the occasional horse box.

[NomduJour]

Majority of working farm vehicles nowadays are Japanese pick-ups. They're more usable, more comfortable, more practical than a Defender. Now their towing weights are increasing, the Defender's last real USP has gone.

[skyrover]

NomduJour said:

Majority of working farm vehicles nowadays are Japanese pick-ups. They're more usable, more comfortable, more practical than a Defender. Now their towing weights are increasing, the Defender's last real USP has gone.

Jap trucks are more reliable but suffer greater depreciation and repair costs and are typically more difficult to fix when they go wrong.

The Defender's ace in the hole is still it's modular construction which currently nothing else offers.

[NomduJour]

skyrover said:

The Defender's ace in the hole is still it's modular construction which currently nothing else offers.

I can guarantee that nobody buying these things as a working tool gives a stuff about that.

Describing them as modular is a stretch in any case.

[skyrover]

You can turn this



into this



into this



In less than an hour

Or in a few more hours... into this



or this



All the same vehicle with a few body parts swapped around.

It's why they hold their value... they can be turned into whatever you need very quickly and being infinitely rebuildable are nigh on immortal

Edited by skyrover on Monday 10th March 18:20

[NomduJour]

Love to see you change a truck cab into a station wagon in a few hours ...

[skyrover]

NomduJour said:

Love to see you change a truck cab into a station wagon in a few hours ...

Provided your chassis is in decent nick, I could do it in an afternoon easily

Here's a guy building a Defender completely from scratch on his own in 8 hours

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEzRPXZt-uk

Edited by skyrover on Monday 10th March 18:23

[NomduJour]

As I said, nobody buying a new working vehicle gives a stuff about whether you could theoretically spend days dismantling it and changing it into something else. Taking a canopy off a twin-cab is as involved as anyone is ever likely to get.

Edit - you're being rather ambitious if you think you convert one into a station wagon in an afternoon - there's an extra crossmember in a station wagon chassis aside from the tub, roof, side panels, back door, side doors, B and C pillars, new floor, different seatbox, seats, seatbelts and mounts, carpets, trim, wiring etc.

Edited by NomduJour on Monday 10th March 18:33

[skyrover]

NomduJour said:

As I said, nobody buying a new working vehicle gives a stuff about whether you could theoretically spend days dismantling it and changing it into something else. Taking a canopy off a twin-cab is as involved as anyone is ever likely to get.

Plenty of coachbuilders out there which need a vehicle that is easily customised to suit their needs.

Think of the defender as a blank slate to mould into what you need/want. It's not for everybody and yes, it is a niche market... but it is also a reliable and proven one.

A popular configuration of defender is the bare chassis model ready for bolting on a custom body. Of course you can either keep this body or fit something more conventional when the time comes to sell it on.

[NomduJour]

Yes, that's obviously a bonus of offering a chassis cab but it's not the same as pretending you can swap body styles in your lunch break.

[skyrover]

NomduJour said:

Yes, that's obviously a bonus of offering a chassis cab but it's not the same as pretending you can swap body styles in your lunch break.

You can though...

You obviously are not the target market for the defender and seem unwilling to accept that it offers capabilities that certain dedicated market groups require or want that nothing else offers.

The people who buy Defenders do so, despite it's poor on road abilities and sketchy engines/gearboxes. That alone speaks volumes.

[skyrover]

NomduJour said:

Edit - you're being rather ambitious if you think you convert one into a station wagon in an afternoon - there's an extra crossmember in a station wagon chassis aside from the tub, roof, side panels, back door, side doors, B and C pillars, new floor, different seatbox, seats, seatbelts and mounts, carpets, trim, wiring etc.
]

Yes... an afternoons work no bother.

I've had the things apart dozens of times and the only thing that will be of any issue is how badly corroded nuts bolts and body parts are.

Stainless fixings and nylon washers do wonders for ease of assembly/disassembly.

[NomduJour]

Nobody (absolutely nobody, anywhere) cares about whether or not they can get MacGyver to change their new pick-up into a station wagon in an afternoon. Welding in new crossmembers hardly counts as "modular".

The chassis-cab option is also offered by the Japanese rivals, hence lots of the utility companies now have custom-bodied pick-ups and not Defenders. No reason why a modern Defender replacement couldn't offer a similar choice of body styles to the existing one (although I strongly suspect Land Rover won't care about that).

[skyrover]

NomduJour said:

Nobody (absolutely nobody, anywhere) cares about whether or not they can get MacGyver to change their new pick-up into a station wagon in an afternoon. Welding in new crossmembers hardly counts as "modular".

The extra crossmember bolts on and like I said, you obviously are not the target market.

NomduJour said:

The chassis-cab option is also offered by the Japanese rivals, hence lots of the utility companies now have custom-bodied pick-ups and not Defenders.

True... although they will not hold their value as well

NomduJour said:

No reason why a modern Defender replacement couldn't offer a similar choice of body styles to the existing one .

Yes this is what I am hoping for...

[NomduJour]

skyrover said:

The extra crossmember bolts on and like I said, you obviously are not the target market

Is it not welded in on the 2007-onward ones?

There is no target market for brand new work vehicles which you can rebody yourself. Nobody does it. Nobody would want to do it.

[skyrover]

NomduJour said:

Is it not welded in on the 2007-onward ones?

It might be... no big deal, part is the same on all years

NomduJour said:

There is no target market for brand new work vehicles which you can rebody yourself. Nobody does it. Nobody would want to do it.

It helps resale values.

The original owner might not want to, but the subsequent owners might

It also makes the vehicle easier/cheaper to repair in a working environment.

Drop a heavy pipe onto the roof an bend it? No problems... a new roof and an hours work to sort it

Edited by skyrover on Monday 10th March 19:09

[NomduJour]

They might also want chequer plate and "One Life" stickers, but I doubt Land Rover care about those either. Just not relevant - they won't lose a sale by not catering for what people might want to do with them ten or fifteen years down the line.

What they could do is sell more by offering a credible alternative at the top end of the twin-cab market, without losing sales to the vacuous urban lifestyle crowd. Suspect that's the most you could realistically hope for.

[skyrover]

NomduJour said:

They might also want chequer plate and "One Life" stickers, but I doubt Land Rover care about those either. Just not relevant - they won't lose a sale by not catering for what people might want to do with them ten or fifteen years down the line.

Resale values are important and the ability to quickly mod or repair a vehicle is important in certain industries. This is why land rover sell a consistent amount of defenders every years and most importantly, they make a profit and give the land rover brand credibility.
These reasons alone justify the defender's existence.

NomduJour said:

What they could do is sell more by offering a credible alternative at the top end of the twin-cab market, without losing sales to the vacuous urban lifestyle crowd. Suspect that's the most you could realistically hope for.

Land Rover needs to decide if it is going to sell a working vehicle or a lifestyle vehicle.
I'm not entirely convinced they can have both and hope to increase sales.

My ideal would be to continue the current defender but perhaps built by bowler in order to skirt EU regulations

Land Rover could then cater to the urban lifestyle crowd with something like the DC100 concept.

[NomduJour]

Any new Land Rover is going to have to work as a "premium" vehicle, that's where the profit is and that's where they've positioned themselves. They aren't going to make a bare-bones Hilux rival with the intention of selling 600,000 of them a year.

I agree that by no longer making a "proper" Land Rover, the reputation is at risk (to me, at least) - unfortunately, most people won't care if their extreme-SUV-lifestyle Defender replacement is incapable of mounting a kerb so long as they think it impresses the neighbours. The issue of whether the existing reputation is sustainable is probably only important for a small number of purists and traditionalists in the established markets. Nobody else will care at all if it isn't bought by farmers or utility companies or if it's not amazing off-road.

Either way, the current Defender is dead - it's hopelessly outdated and can never meet modern safety and emissions requirements.

[skyrover]

NomduJour said:

Any new Land Rover is going to have to work as a "premium" vehicle, that's where the profit is and that's where they've positioned themselves. They aren't going to make a bare-bones Hilux rival with the intention of selling 600,000 of them a year.

Yup... land rover simply can't compete with the Japanese brands. They are too well engineered and priced too competitively.

NomduJour said:

I agree that by no longer making a "proper" Land Rover, the reputation is at risk (to me, at least) - unfortunately, most people won't care if their extreme-SUV-lifestyle Defender replacement is incapable of mounting a kerb so long as they think it impresses the neighbours. The issue of whether the existing reputation is sustainable is probably only important for a small number of purists and traditionalists in the established markets. Nobody else will care at all if it isn't bought by farmers or utility companies or if it's not amazing off-road.

Either way, the current Defender is dead - it's hopelessly outdated and can never meet modern safety and emissions requirements.

Yes... but I suppose it depends on your Definition of modern

In many respects "modern" means a lick of shiny paint over something that is less capable.

I think the Defender concept will live on, possibly under another brand... but not as a "land rover"