RE: Lotus: Dead weight lifted or dead man walking?
Discussion
Scuffers said:
get real.
they have come up with the MP4-12 in less time than Lotus took over the Evora, and yes, you can say they threw money at doing it, but that's kind of missing the point (and also not hugely accurate either).
McLaren have actually not invented much, what they have done is looked about at what's available and put the best of it together.
Ricardo have done the engine, what's Lotus's excuse for not doing this kind of work?
Graziano did the gearbox, once again, what's Lotus's excuse?
Carbo Tech make the tub, once again, what's Lotus's excuse?
suspension - Tenneco/Kinetic, yet again, what's lotus's excuse?
the list goes on....
Do you mean that Lotus should have been doing the work for other people (like they do through Lotus Engineering) or buying in services (which they already provide through Lotus Engineering) or components (which they already do) ? they have come up with the MP4-12 in less time than Lotus took over the Evora, and yes, you can say they threw money at doing it, but that's kind of missing the point (and also not hugely accurate either).
McLaren have actually not invented much, what they have done is looked about at what's available and put the best of it together.
Ricardo have done the engine, what's Lotus's excuse for not doing this kind of work?
Graziano did the gearbox, once again, what's Lotus's excuse?
Carbo Tech make the tub, once again, what's Lotus's excuse?
suspension - Tenneco/Kinetic, yet again, what's lotus's excuse?
the list goes on....
peter450 said:
Do they though?, what have Mclaren achieved exactly? the car is very impressive, but also has a myriad of annoying faults if a thread about it some ago is anything to go by
We wont know what Mclaren have achived for a while i dont think, i'm not sure how well the car has sold, but i'l bet the 458 has outsold it massively, it's car to establish Mclaren as a permanent player, rather than occasional vistor to the supercar league, and only time will tell if it has achived that aim
Crikey, there is so much wrong in that post I don't know where to start...We wont know what Mclaren have achived for a while i dont think, i'm not sure how well the car has sold, but i'l bet the 458 has outsold it massively, it's car to establish Mclaren as a permanent player, rather than occasional vistor to the supercar league, and only time will tell if it has achived that aim
McLaren have sold around 1000 cars over the last 12 months.
Given that they have had to build up a distribution network from scratch, establish the brand as a genuine offering in road cars from scratch and reached out the market place from a cold, standing start, this is an amazing achievement.
Lets compare that to Ferrari and the 458. Between September 2009 ( launch ) and September 2010 ( when they had to recall every single 458 because of the annoying little issue of them catching fire ) the official number of cars sold over that 12 month period was 1248 ( according to wiki).
This makes McLaren's achievement is selling 1000 MP412C's in a 12 month period, from a cold start, extraordinarily impressive.
marshalla said:
Do you mean that Lotus should have been doing the work for other people (like they do through Lotus Engineering) or buying in services (which they already provide through Lotus Engineering) or components (which they already do) ?
well, preferably, the first, but failing that, the latter...What I was getting at is Lotus Cars (as opposed to engineering) could have done the same as McLaren and brought in this stuff.
From the perspective of Lotus Engineering, why have they not developed any of this?
either way, they have both failed.
Scuffers said:
well, preferably, the first, but failing that, the latter...
What I was getting at is Lotus Cars (as opposed to engineering) could have done the same as McLaren and brought in this stuff.
From the perspective of Lotus Engineering, why have they not developed any of this?
either way, they have both failed.
One might suggest that a CEO with more experience of the production of motor vehicles, rather than sales of associated fripperies, would have known that there was a better fast-track to market than trying to do everything in house with new management and staff. Since I have no experience of that and may be considered the sort of person who would buy a piglet and plant wheat in the morning in order to have a bacon sandwich for lunch, I wouldn't begin to insinuate that I am the right person to make that suggestion.What I was getting at is Lotus Cars (as opposed to engineering) could have done the same as McLaren and brought in this stuff.
From the perspective of Lotus Engineering, why have they not developed any of this?
either way, they have both failed.
Edited by marshalla on Saturday 14th July 15:15
Just had this sent to me : http://blog.caranddriver.com/lotus-pulls-out-of-pa...
Lotus will not be at the Paris Motor Show.
Lotus will not be at the Paris Motor Show.
toppstuff said:
peter450 said:
Do they though?, what have Mclaren achieved exactly? the car is very impressive, but also has a myriad of annoying faults if a thread about it some ago is anything to go by
We wont know what Mclaren have achived for a while i dont think, i'm not sure how well the car has sold, but i'l bet the 458 has outsold it massively, it's car to establish Mclaren as a permanent player, rather than occasional vistor to the supercar league, and only time will tell if it has achived that aim
Crikey, there is so much wrong in that post I don't know where to start...We wont know what Mclaren have achived for a while i dont think, i'm not sure how well the car has sold, but i'l bet the 458 has outsold it massively, it's car to establish Mclaren as a permanent player, rather than occasional vistor to the supercar league, and only time will tell if it has achived that aim
McLaren have sold around 1000 cars over the last 12 months.
Given that they have had to build up a distribution network from scratch, establish the brand as a genuine offering in road cars from scratch and reached out the market place from a cold, standing start, this is an amazing achievement.
Lets compare that to Ferrari and the 458. Between September 2009 ( launch ) and September 2010 ( when they had to recall every single 458 because of the annoying little issue of them catching fire ) the official number of cars sold over that 12 month period was 1248 ( according to wiki).
This makes McLaren's achievement is selling 1000 MP412C's in a 12 month period, from a cold start, extraordinarily impressive.
Would be interesting to see a Mclaren interpretation of the Evora at some stage.
dom180 said:
Would be interesting to see a Mclaren interpretation of the Evora at some stage.
It would IMO be interesting to see a proper Lotus interpretation of Evora at some stage! In other words the same car with the engine moved forward and lower to where the rear seats have been, a redesigned body from the windscreen backwards and some instruments/stereo worthy of a £55k car. Somehow they started with all the right components and then made a mess of it.toppstuff said:
McLaren (...) cold, standing start
I get what you're saying, but don't think they had a standing start - I would have said they were reasonably represented in the minds of potential purchasers through the F1 (sport & car) and the SLR.Impressive granted, but not as much as say Pagani or Koenigsegg (although outright marque pedigree perhaps doesn't seem to matter in the hypercar segment as much as the individual vehicle).
Scuffers said:
What I was getting at is Lotus Cars (as opposed to engineering) could have done the same as McLaren and brought in this stuff.
From the perspective of Lotus Engineering, why have they not developed any of this?
I'm interested what you know about the Esprit's drivetrain that allows you to so convincingly dismiss it?From the perspective of Lotus Engineering, why have they not developed any of this?
As for the Evora, they bought in an engine that delivers the required performance at a good weight and proven reliability. It tunes well and, given the oxygen can sound fine. They get roundly criticised for not having built their own, but if they had they'd have been crucified for (a) it being expensive and (b) not being proven reliable.
You might argue that Mclaren had an easier job of it. From a standing start and with their reputation they could pick and choose the deals to do and their approach. With a supercar they could get away with having a handful of dealers worldwide, and could set them up from scratch to be in the right place for their market. It seems to me people consistently underestimate the effect of a well placed dealer network on sales - and the damaging effect of a poor one. With a supercar price point and their cast iron reputation and experience with F1 racing and the F1 car, they could afford to be bullish about the car they wanted to produce. If Bahar had proposed a similar plan he would have been called foolish and arrogant.
Compare that with Lotus who currently work under a cloud, have a legacy dealership network and complex relations with suppliers and other manufacturers. They have virtually no brand recognition amongst the wider public, and their only identity for drivers under 30 is as producers of a small slightly dated plastic runaround that has a reputation for excellent handling - which in markets like America counts for next to nothing. That doesn't put you in a strong position to demand perfection.
Tuna said:
I'm interested what you know about the Esprit's drivetrain that allows you to so convincingly dismiss it?
almost nothing, but I will bet you real money it does not beet the McLaren/Ricardo one for power/torque output and emissions.Tuna said:
As for the Evora, they bought in an engine that delivers the required performance at a good weight and proven reliability. It tunes well and, given the oxygen can sound fine.
which part of it's an obsolete engine do you not get? Toyota replaced it some time ago, do you think they did that for fun?so we have gone from building a new engine with class leading performance to one that was given end of life several years ago in two paragraphs?
Look, I am not saying Lotus have to develop their own engine from scratch, (to be blunt, I don't think they have the capabilities to do it any more), would be fine for them to go out and buy in one, but, and this is the point, NOT one that's end of life and out of a shopping trolley car, as even if it;s a great engine, your going to have a hard time marketing it as such.
Mattt said:
I get what you're saying, but don't think they had a standing start - I would have said they were reasonably represented in the minds of potential purchasers through the F1 (sport & car) and the SLR.
Impressive granted, but not as much as say Pagani or Koenigsegg (although outright marque pedigree perhaps doesn't seem to matter in the hypercar segment as much as the individual vehicle).
Thats not really very logical. Impressive granted, but not as much as say Pagani or Koenigsegg (although outright marque pedigree perhaps doesn't seem to matter in the hypercar segment as much as the individual vehicle).
Pagani and Koenigsegg are very low volume manufacturers - they only make a few dozen cars a year. If people want one, they invariably pay a visit to the factory.
In contrast, McLaren are in the volume , mass production game. This means that not only do they have to build a factory capable of churning out thousands of cars at the rate of several every single day, they also have to set up a dealer network. This means negotiating with potential dealer franchises, overseeing the development, design and build of new showrooms, training of technicians and salespeople, import issues etc etc. And they had to set this up in several different countries, with different languages, all at the same time.
McLarens achievement is infinitely more complicated than anything Pagani or Egg have ever had to do..
Lotus can learn a lot from the boys at Woking.
Scuffers said:
which part of it's an obsolete engine do you not get? Toyota replaced it some time ago, do you think they did that for fun?
Strangely I thought that maybe Toyota's priorities weren't the same as Lotus and they moved towards a bigger capacity engine with lower specific output per litre. The Evora engine uses the same Dual VVT-i setup as Toyota's current GR engine so I'm not sure quite how you think that it's instantly a dinosaur, especially since Lotus aren't exactly running it 'stock'.Scuffers said:
Chassis is designated E20, not sure how you translate that to Lotus? (as in type XXX like the 2010 Lotus was the T127)
and yes, your right, we should be calling it Toleman (Brabham F1 died in 1992 and is totally un-related)
I asked a Lotus employee about this at the GFoS, and apparently Lotus Engineering has worked on the E20's chassis and suspension.and yes, your right, we should be calling it Toleman (Brabham F1 died in 1992 and is totally un-related)
t there, and you brought it.)Scuffers said:
get real.
they have come up with the MP4-12 in less time than Lotus took over the Evora, and yes, you can say they threw money at doing it, but that's kind of missing the point (and also not hugely accurate either).
McLaren have actually not invented much, what they have done is looked about at what's available and put the best of it together.
Ricardo have done the engine, what's Lotus's excuse for not doing this kind of work?
Graziano did the gearbox, once again, what's Lotus's excuse?
Carbo Tech make the tub, once again, what's Lotus's excuse?
suspension - Tenneco/Kinetic, yet again, what's lotus's excuse?
the list goes on....
You and everyone quoting me subsequently are missing my point (maybe not properly explained by me), the whole project will be a massive failure, if the company goes bust in 5 years time as a result of trying to muscle in on the supercar league on a permanent basis, regardless of how good the car may or may not bethey have come up with the MP4-12 in less time than Lotus took over the Evora, and yes, you can say they threw money at doing it, but that's kind of missing the point (and also not hugely accurate either).
McLaren have actually not invented much, what they have done is looked about at what's available and put the best of it together.
Ricardo have done the engine, what's Lotus's excuse for not doing this kind of work?
Graziano did the gearbox, once again, what's Lotus's excuse?
Carbo Tech make the tub, once again, what's Lotus's excuse?
suspension - Tenneco/Kinetic, yet again, what's lotus's excuse?
the list goes on....
Yes the car is overall pretty impressive, i said as much but the whole point of Mclarens first car is to get a permanent foothold in the market, so we wont know if the car was a real success until some years down the line, when/if Mclaren become a permanent established player and there cars sell consistantly in the numbers required over the years
Lotus need to get moving on there Esprit i agree, but so far Mclaren have got the car to market, they have not yet i dont think fully established themselves, which is the point i was making there only at the start of there plans, to become a full time player with a 2 or 3 car lineup
The Supercar road is littered with grand plans that ended badly, i hope lotus is not one of them, Pagani seem to have done it, i think Mclaren have a good chance to do it too, but there success is not guaranteed, and they have not got there yet, that was the point i was making, not very well if all the responces are to go by
Tuna said:
Strangely I thought that maybe Toyota's priorities weren't the same as Lotus and they moved towards a bigger capacity engine with lower specific output per litre. The Evora engine uses the same Dual VVT-i setup as Toyota's current GR engine so I'm not sure quite how you think that it's instantly a dinosaur, especially since Lotus aren't exactly running it 'stock'.
I think there is a newer version of the Evora's engine that uses direct injection, the original yota unit made something like 250hp, while the newer one makes around 310hp, i'm not sure why it was not used, or what the issues were, i suspect money as alwaysBut if lotus got 280 from the older unit, i expect they could have got 340 from the newer one and probably 380 to 400 Supercharged, and the Evora would have had more of a performance edge to it, i love the style & looks of the car, but for a car with it's style and looks, 280hp was always going to look a little short in 2012, had it launched at the time the M250 was due out, 280 would have been fine it just lotus need to really offer more performance than a porsche competitor car
One of the Esprits best selling varients, even after it had been in production a while was the SE Turbo with 264hp, because acceleratively speaking it was pretty damn quick for the day, the intercooler was the only real addition over the prev car, but it gave the car a performance edge the prev version lacked
Scuffers said:
well, Honda would be the obvious answer at the moment, they put all the time/effort/money in, Brawn had an exceptional year out of that, then sold to Merc.
in a couple of years time, then it would be legitimate to call it a merc as the car will have been clean-sheeted by then.
Renault on the other had lent GenII the money to buy the team off them, (and technically still hold the loan AFAIK?), Lotus then slapped a badge on it, GenII managed to get the name changed, but it still have zero Lotus input aside a badge.
Ask yourself this question, what't the name on the employee's contracts/payslips?
No, ask yourself what the team is called, because that what people watching F1 see. Looking at payslips, good grief.in a couple of years time, then it would be legitimate to call it a merc as the car will have been clean-sheeted by then.
Renault on the other had lent GenII the money to buy the team off them, (and technically still hold the loan AFAIK?), Lotus then slapped a badge on it, GenII managed to get the name changed, but it still have zero Lotus input aside a badge.
Ask yourself this question, what't the name on the employee's contracts/payslips?
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