RE: Caterham: the future
Discussion
JenkinsComp said:
The 7 is a British icon, and should not be built elsewhere at the expense of production in the UK, unless they wish to ruin the company and the brand like TVR did, like Mini has, like Bentley has.
I agree with the first bit and about TVR, but to include Mini and Bentley in that critique is ridiculous; they are both very successful and are built in the UK; they happen to be ultimately owned by the Germans, but so what? The World knows them as British Cars and even more importantly, they employ British Workers who have proven that with the right investment, they are bloody good and second to none.Caterham would give their back teeth for such a success story, especially compared to what Mini has achieved from a standing start in little more than a decade.
thewheelman said:
americancrx said:
Caterham:
20k for the base model with a 1.3 liter, 80 hp Peugeot EW will work if it weighs in at 700kg.
Don't build another 21.
Oh god no! I wouldn't want an underpowered Pug engine anywhere near it. 20k for the base model with a 1.3 liter, 80 hp Peugeot EW will work if it weighs in at 700kg.
Don't build another 21.
I had many happy years in Caterhams in the past. Great toys and I hope they survive long enough for me and my son to build one together.
If they must move forward I think they absolutely need to stay British with British designed and predominantly manufactured cars. Given the trend for highly efficient cars then they have a future that could work very well with the brand and leverage the best aspect of the seven, lightness. For me, they totally need to team up with the modern day Colin Chapman that is Gordon Murray. I'd love to see Caterham commercialise the T25 with the Ford Fox I3 engine (An International engine of the year and an all British design, a team I worked with some years ago and of which I am so very chuffed for them to get such recognition). I know GMD are itching to do a small sportscar off the T25 too so. I also know that their is a blueprint of a Lotus 7 hanging off the wall of the GMD boardroom too (worked with GMD briefly too on a project).
I really really wish this would happen... A 100mpg sportscar is just so doable with this pairing. I want one.
If they must move forward I think they absolutely need to stay British with British designed and predominantly manufactured cars. Given the trend for highly efficient cars then they have a future that could work very well with the brand and leverage the best aspect of the seven, lightness. For me, they totally need to team up with the modern day Colin Chapman that is Gordon Murray. I'd love to see Caterham commercialise the T25 with the Ford Fox I3 engine (An International engine of the year and an all British design, a team I worked with some years ago and of which I am so very chuffed for them to get such recognition). I know GMD are itching to do a small sportscar off the T25 too so. I also know that their is a blueprint of a Lotus 7 hanging off the wall of the GMD boardroom too (worked with GMD briefly too on a project).
I really really wish this would happen... A 100mpg sportscar is just so doable with this pairing. I want one.
The Seven has lasted 52 years of production, people buy it for lots of reasons. I think that one of the main reasons is that its different I know its been copied but it is truly different from all the mundeano's and that includes Porsche and all its variants which typically only rich boys can afford to run and race
It has character it has simplicity, Joe and Jo blogs can build one tinker with it race it tour with it
Whilst it has been said that a 7 cannot go on forever maybe maybe not. If you own one or have owned one you know theses are no ordinary cars and its also that link back to the early days of motorsport.
It is said that 80% of all 7's that have been produced are still out there.......how many other manufactures can say that? a Car that has been in production since 1957 and 80% still around.
This car survived because of one Man Graham Nearn, there must have been years when Caterham did not make money and perhaps just broke even (poss in the 70's when they were forced to sell other cars) Ansar did a cracking job of stabilising Caterham.
It takes passion and vison to do what Graham Nearn did. It also enabled him to support a family pay a workforce and develop the 7 over the years but this may be not enough for the big corporate now in charge where profit and growth is king. At some point in the future someone may decide just as Colin Chapman did all those years ago the 7 is just noise when considering new products with better margins and what is believed the general public with deep pockets want.
if you think you want or actually want a 7 go buy it now don't wait just do it.
It has character it has simplicity, Joe and Jo blogs can build one tinker with it race it tour with it
Whilst it has been said that a 7 cannot go on forever maybe maybe not. If you own one or have owned one you know theses are no ordinary cars and its also that link back to the early days of motorsport.
It is said that 80% of all 7's that have been produced are still out there.......how many other manufactures can say that? a Car that has been in production since 1957 and 80% still around.
This car survived because of one Man Graham Nearn, there must have been years when Caterham did not make money and perhaps just broke even (poss in the 70's when they were forced to sell other cars) Ansar did a cracking job of stabilising Caterham.
It takes passion and vison to do what Graham Nearn did. It also enabled him to support a family pay a workforce and develop the 7 over the years but this may be not enough for the big corporate now in charge where profit and growth is king. At some point in the future someone may decide just as Colin Chapman did all those years ago the 7 is just noise when considering new products with better margins and what is believed the general public with deep pockets want.
if you think you want or actually want a 7 go buy it now don't wait just do it.
Toaster said:
It is said that 80% of all 7's that have been produced are still out there.......how many other manufactures can say that? a Car that has been in production since 1957 and 80% still around.
That's a curse as much as a blessing. We've already done the "why buy a new Caterham model at £40K when you could buy a second hand 911" conversation... Why buy a brand new seven when you could buy one of the masses still on the road, particularly when they're so easy to work on?Add in that competition like Ariel have shown that the 7 formula isn't unassailable, increasingly difficult regulations and a year of bad weather, and being a manufacturer that relies on a single model that they didn't even design doesn't seem that attractive to me.
Tuna said:
We've already done the "why buy a new Caterham model at £40K when you could buy a second hand 911" conversation...
Well it doesn't harm to repeat, but a 7 may use a pint of oil and some fuel on a track day but a Porsche is more costly......and if the Porsche guys are honest they will acknowledge thatToaster said:
An interesting snippet buried in the middle of that report:Corven said:
Over 22,000 people a year now drive a Caterham as part of driving experience days in the UK.
So each year they get 22,000 people to drive their cars, and only 500 buy them worldwide? That doesn't strike me as a good conversion rate.I don't want to be down on Caterham, but despite the immense goodwill towards their car, I can understand why they might want to widen their range. That's ignoring the aspirations (and hangups) of their new owner, which are clearly playing a big part in the direction they're going.
Tuna said:
So each year they get 22,000 people to drive their cars, and only 500 buy them worldwide? That doesn't strike me as a good conversion rate.
I don't want to be down on Caterham, but despite the immense goodwill towards their car, I can understand why they might want to widen their range. That's ignoring the aspirations (and hangups) of their new owner, which are clearly playing a big part in the direction they're going.
It is an interesting number. I guess the 500 is inflated by the number bought second hand though. I don't want to be down on Caterham, but despite the immense goodwill towards their car, I can understand why they might want to widen their range. That's ignoring the aspirations (and hangups) of their new owner, which are clearly playing a big part in the direction they're going.
But if you had a company which sold one product to one main geographic and that geographic had turd weather and a turd economy then it would be prudent to look to a product which could take your brand to where there is money and a growing scene for track cars.
First mover advantage is vital. In the UK when you say 7 you think Caterham. Outside of the UK Caterham do not have that advantage by default and must work hard to earn it.
I do think it boils down to how this car looks at the end of the day because I am convinced there is a market but there is competition and the best way to win is via visuals as we know they can do the mechanicals.
For me, I would find it legendary if this new hard top Caterham looked remarkably identical to an S1/2 Esprit.
A Ginetta G40 style chassis/body is the obvious safe step - day-to-day usability with basic day-to-day comforts, properly sealed from the weather, reasonable boot space, proper cockpit, probably less raw than the Ginetta in fact. Halfway between G40 and junior TVR perhaps. Maybe even a 2+2.
But I can't see this competing in the £40K bracket for the bread n butter models; quality and prestige will be nowhere near good enough. Far better to go in at the £20-£25K range with a small fuel & emission efficient engine, majoring on handling and low running costs/VED. Use the GT86/BRZ ethos but less polished and cheaper. Then from this base, they would have all manner of opportunities for higher-powered halo models at £40K+ (call it GT3...) to steal the headlines and and feed demand for the base models.
But I can't see this competing in the £40K bracket for the bread n butter models; quality and prestige will be nowhere near good enough. Far better to go in at the £20-£25K range with a small fuel & emission efficient engine, majoring on handling and low running costs/VED. Use the GT86/BRZ ethos but less polished and cheaper. Then from this base, they would have all manner of opportunities for higher-powered halo models at £40K+ (call it GT3...) to steal the headlines and and feed demand for the base models.
Tuna said:
So each year they get 22,000 people to drive their cars, and only 500 buy them worldwide? That doesn't strike me as a good conversion rate.
I don't want to be down on Caterham, but despite the immense goodwill towards their car, I can understand why they might want to widen their range. That's ignoring the aspirations (and hangups) of their new owner, which are clearly playing a big part in the direction they're going.
Maybe but if one man could support a family and 50 odd employees without expansion and 'growth' supporting a niche low volume car purchased driven and enjoyed by a small but loyal base I think that could be muted as sustainability, the other roads of expansion and global growth could just be as Chris Rea pointed out just a 'Road to Hell' with 'money flying away from him' But what do I know. I don't want to be down on Caterham, but despite the immense goodwill towards their car, I can understand why they might want to widen their range. That's ignoring the aspirations (and hangups) of their new owner, which are clearly playing a big part in the direction they're going.
If Lotus are struggling what hope of a 'new' manufacturer pinning the hope on the link with F1 and motorsport to launch a new car, it is a dilemma and not one for amateurs or the faint hearted.
I just hope they get it right and the 7 is still being produced in England in 10 years time........
Toaster said:
Maybe but if one man could support a family and 50 odd employees without expansion and 'growth' supporting a niche low volume car purchased driven and enjoyed by a small but loyal base.....
Although for most of the time that Graeme owned the business he was only really contending with Westfield and a UK centric market. Since then we had the boom of the locost competition, the massive growth of track days and numerous new cars like the Atom etc.
Their market today is far tougher and more competitive than in his time.
And on top of that the ever burgeoning weight and cost of red tape and legislation has added more and more fat to the pie.
If they want to remain at the top and earn the revenues with enough margins to keep rolling out a great product they need to look at other products and markets because their competition will if they don't and then use those better revenues and more stable business to price out and kill off Caterham.
Even if Caterham just wanted to remain doing what they were doing they can't as their competition will expand, dominate, take market share and price them out.
Fair bit of sort of perhaps missing the point going on here?
'Low conversion rate': many trackday operators use 7s (with good reason) as their trackday hire cars; who knows how many Customers, but likely a high percentage of will be just corporate people/groups of friends doing it as a one-off eg balloon ride done prior, bungy jump next on the agenda. Is 22,000 correct? I doubt it.
Is 500 right?; don't know, but if it is 500-ish new cars built, that is pretty darn good and impressive for a specialist niche manufacturer. Gives me heart that if they select the right new product (to my mind, this is effectively 'what we already do taken on a few significant evolution stages'), perhaps they could double that and doubling one's output/turnover would be impressive in anyone's books.
As for focussing on something like a GT86 as some sort of measure of what to do/where to go/at what price, nope definitely not - not only can you not compete with one of the World's largest car manufacturers (trying to do so and being seen to do so is a bit like offering to become shark-bait), it's also a completely different horse for a completely different course; blame the road testers who have probably rightly called it one of the best handling road cars for many years, hence all those pics of it hanging it's ass out on some track somewhere - what they of course fail to mention is that show-boating aside, virtually every Caterham ever made would still be able to gobble it up like a very light breakfast in terms of getting round a track in the shortest time possible.
Top of my design brief as a 'given' would be no permanent roof and do we really need (anything other than really simple) doors?
Much like Morgan did (oh so successfully and from the very edge of a precipice), Caterham need to play to their strengths.
'Low conversion rate': many trackday operators use 7s (with good reason) as their trackday hire cars; who knows how many Customers, but likely a high percentage of will be just corporate people/groups of friends doing it as a one-off eg balloon ride done prior, bungy jump next on the agenda. Is 22,000 correct? I doubt it.
Is 500 right?; don't know, but if it is 500-ish new cars built, that is pretty darn good and impressive for a specialist niche manufacturer. Gives me heart that if they select the right new product (to my mind, this is effectively 'what we already do taken on a few significant evolution stages'), perhaps they could double that and doubling one's output/turnover would be impressive in anyone's books.
As for focussing on something like a GT86 as some sort of measure of what to do/where to go/at what price, nope definitely not - not only can you not compete with one of the World's largest car manufacturers (trying to do so and being seen to do so is a bit like offering to become shark-bait), it's also a completely different horse for a completely different course; blame the road testers who have probably rightly called it one of the best handling road cars for many years, hence all those pics of it hanging it's ass out on some track somewhere - what they of course fail to mention is that show-boating aside, virtually every Caterham ever made would still be able to gobble it up like a very light breakfast in terms of getting round a track in the shortest time possible.
Top of my design brief as a 'given' would be no permanent roof and do we really need (anything other than really simple) doors?
Much like Morgan did (oh so successfully and from the very edge of a precipice), Caterham need to play to their strengths.
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