Cars with best steering wheel feedback
Discussion
The Wookie said:
There are variations on requirements however there is a framework which is generally seen as desirable whatever the type of car and whatever the driver. Things like linearity of response and weight build up as wheel angle, vehicle speed and cornering force increase are, I suspect, desirable to any competent driver.
Problems usually come from a badly tuned system or a chosen system that is limited by its physical properties for desirable traits in other areas (e.g. EPAS), but sometimes can come from conflicting design requirements or where marketing overrides engineering.
A good example of conflicting requirements would be the current M3 where the engineers have clearly been tasked with giving light parking efforts for convenience along with weighty feel on the move. The result is that the car feels slightly unnatural at manoeuvring speeds and has a sharp drop off in effort above a certain speed that means that you often turn into, say, a particular small roundabout at a slightly different speed to the last few days and are surprised by the steering being either much heavier and lighter than you were expecting.
Also with the M3 there's clearly been a requirement for on-centre stability with good off-centre response. The result is that you do get arrow straight motorway behaviour and good response when you're really pressing on, but when you're driving normally down a twisty road you're often in an odd transition that makes the car a little difficult to place at times.
Yes, there are situations where some aspects are desirable in some cars and undesirable in others (e.g. information feedback in sports cars vs luxury cars) and manufacturers do have specific 'signal states' that they want to have in terms of weighting, build up, friction and feedback based on what they think their customers want, but they all tend to be quantative variations on a theme.
Basically what I'm getting at is that the minutiae of steering feel might be down to personal taste, but a predictable, natural feeling system is generally always desirable yet not always achieved.
Makes a lot of sense, thanks for that!Problems usually come from a badly tuned system or a chosen system that is limited by its physical properties for desirable traits in other areas (e.g. EPAS), but sometimes can come from conflicting design requirements or where marketing overrides engineering.
A good example of conflicting requirements would be the current M3 where the engineers have clearly been tasked with giving light parking efforts for convenience along with weighty feel on the move. The result is that the car feels slightly unnatural at manoeuvring speeds and has a sharp drop off in effort above a certain speed that means that you often turn into, say, a particular small roundabout at a slightly different speed to the last few days and are surprised by the steering being either much heavier and lighter than you were expecting.
Also with the M3 there's clearly been a requirement for on-centre stability with good off-centre response. The result is that you do get arrow straight motorway behaviour and good response when you're really pressing on, but when you're driving normally down a twisty road you're often in an odd transition that makes the car a little difficult to place at times.
Yes, there are situations where some aspects are desirable in some cars and undesirable in others (e.g. information feedback in sports cars vs luxury cars) and manufacturers do have specific 'signal states' that they want to have in terms of weighting, build up, friction and feedback based on what they think their customers want, but they all tend to be quantative variations on a theme.
Basically what I'm getting at is that the minutiae of steering feel might be down to personal taste, but a predictable, natural feeling system is generally always desirable yet not always achieved.
scarble said:
Come to think of it, why are we encouraging OP? Anyone who fails "a few times" is not fit to drive! Only those who pass first time should be allowed on the roads.
I know a fair few people who on passing their test first time wrote off their car within the week. Overconfidence isn't great for driving. That said I'd agree that anyone who has failed more than say 5 times is almost certainly unfit to be behind the wheel.I'm probably alone on this but not 100% sold on Ford steering. GF's Puma had a slightly rubbery feel to it - the front-end was mega and the way it dived into corners was amazing but I didn't find the feedback sufficiently linear or analogue. In my experience, the best PAS systems I've used are on the Peugeot 306, Evora and Aston V8 Vantage. All give nice detail and realistic resistance. I also think having the chassis set up so the seat of your pants feel matches the steering is important. I've spent a lot of hours these last couple of weeks in my dad's V8 Vantage and the grain of the road surface you feel through the steering exactly matches what you feel through the chassis. It makes the whole experience very honest and feel very organic.
renrut said:
I know a fair few people who on passing their test first time wrote off their car within the week. Overconfidence isn't great for driving. That said I'd agree that anyone who has failed more than say 5 times is almost certainly unfit to be behind the wheel.
but neither is underconfidence. or just being c**p.renrut said:
nottyash said:
renrut said:
MR2 mk1. Amazing. I'd imagine an Elise would be very similar but better.
I miss mine
I reckon the mk3 was slightly better, even with electric power steering. It's about as close to a go kart as I have owned.I miss mine
scarble said:
renrut said:
I know a fair few people who on passing their test first time wrote off their car within the week. Overconfidence isn't great for driving. That said I'd agree that anyone who has failed more than say 5 times is almost certainly unfit to be behind the wheel.
but neither is underconfidence. or just being c**p.Morningside said:
TVR. Failing that the old shape bubble Micra.
Mk1 Micra 
.Mk6 Escort is rather nice too and you get a bit more room. Mine has the brutal 1.6L powerhouse
Maybe not what you would call a drivers car but it's better than a multitude of modern hatchy things or rep mobiles I've driven.
Best I have ever driven - Caterham.
Most disappointing? Porsche 997 PDK - nothing like it is cracked up to be.
Most surprising, and in certain ways actually better than the Caterham? My friend's old Alfa 155 1.8TS. Amazing - I swapped my Morgan with him for a whole day while we were doing a drive through Wales, just because I loved the way that car communicated with your palms.
Most disappointing? Porsche 997 PDK - nothing like it is cracked up to be.
Most surprising, and in certain ways actually better than the Caterham? My friend's old Alfa 155 1.8TS. Amazing - I swapped my Morgan with him for a whole day while we were doing a drive through Wales, just because I loved the way that car communicated with your palms.
Leins said:
Cotty said:
Hence on of the tweeks is to buy an E36 steering rack (which is quicker) and fit it to an E30.
Have heard of that being done before, but to be honest it's not something that bothers me overly. Mine has a standard 325i rack, and it's only when jumping from my E46 (CSL, so a faster steering set-up again) that I really notice the differenceI think that was one of the issues with the RHD conversions of the E30 M3 as far as I remember, in that Birds had to use the 325i rack too, which probably didn't suit the more highly-strung nature of those cars as well
I'm currently putting an E36 rack in my E30 along with a lot of other stuff. Got my custom PAS hoses back today
Anyway, 3 I remember were:
306's
Mk 2 mondeos
Nissan Primera Gt. Although this had lighter steering than the above two, it did still provide a lot of feedback.
Edited by maniac0796 on Tuesday 11th September 13:21
Harry Flashman said:
Most disappointing? Porsche 997 PDK - nothing like it is cracked up to be.
Whatever you do don't try the 991 in that case. It's long been fashionable to complain about successive generations of 911 losing their steering feedback, but in the case of the final iteration I think it's actually true.nottyash said:
renrut said:
nottyash said:
renrut said:
MR2 mk1. Amazing. I'd imagine an Elise would be very similar but better.
I miss mine
I reckon the mk3 was slightly better, even with electric power steering. It's about as close to a go kart as I have owned.I miss mine
Waugh-terfall said:
If I could change just one thing about that car, the steering would be it! I hate it! It's awful!
Mate of mine pestered the life out of me to make him some chassis braces for his as the steering was so lifeless, you can see part of the reason when you get underneath - it's not the steering system per se, it's subframe that has a great big tunnel in it so there's not much lateral stiffness, and great big, soft rear wishbone mounts that let the toe-in change a shedload under cornering loads. Kept him happy with the braces but never had chance to deal with the wishbones as someone shunted it shortly after!Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff