RE: Paris 2012: F-Type, full details

RE: Paris 2012: F-Type, full details

Author
Discussion

williamp

19,213 posts

272 months

Monday 1st October 2012
quotequote all
JLR are a proper grown-up car maker now. The F-type is aimin for younger drivres, and I am sure that as well as the more powerul R version, they will include a bonkers-lightweight GT3 style version with its own race series. Like the Vangtage N24.

nbirch

32 posts

201 months

Tuesday 2nd October 2012
quotequote all
DJRC said:
You have obviously been discussing it with the above ppl this week then? Oh wait, sorry, this is the internet, of course you havent.

Whereas I was in Firenze and Pisa yesterday and in southern Germany today. Being British and amongst engineers the conversation on both days turned to the release of the "new E-Type". The Italians had a young Micra driving woman, late 20s and the Germans a middle aged lady with a new BMW 3 series. The F-Type was met with complete approval by all members of both groups I was with, inc 2 very different ladies.

It would seem that you are in fact incorrect given the primary evidence available.
And it would seem that you are in fact a first class pr**k.

I'm sorry. Given "the primary evidence", you've clearly been taking advantage of Ryan Air 2-for-1 deals for your annual holiday, so I'll withdraw the "first class" comment.

As for your pithy putdown, like the F type, it also fails on 3 counts - "young Micra driving woman", "Middle aged (German) lady" and "BMX 3 series". Way to go on discussing the F type with such a learned group of F type target customers.

But they're "engineers" I hear you bellow at your laptop. So was my Grandfather, he built bridges and knew c*ck all about cars. No engineer would ever admit to driving a Micra, even if they actually did.

Toddle off now and go back to your "objective testing" your Sierras around Kingston and Lewes. (By the way, if you're only 10 secs difference between the Sierra and the TVR on your "objective tests", you're using them wrong. I'd stop and take the bus, clearly you're not meant to be driving.) Here you go... http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/gettingaround/maps/buses...

You're welcome.

DJRC

23,563 posts

235 months

Tuesday 2nd October 2012
quotequote all
nbirch said:
DJRC said:
You have obviously been discussing it with the above ppl this week then? Oh wait, sorry, this is the internet, of course you havent.

Whereas I was in Firenze and Pisa yesterday and in southern Germany today. Being British and amongst engineers the conversation on both days turned to the release of the "new E-Type". The Italians had a young Micra driving woman, late 20s and the Germans a middle aged lady with a new BMW 3 series. The F-Type was met with complete approval by all members of both groups I was with, inc 2 very different ladies.

It would seem that you are in fact incorrect given the primary evidence available.
And it would seem that you are in fact a first class pr**k.

I'm sorry. Given "the primary evidence", you've clearly been taking advantage of Ryan Air 2-for-1 deals for your annual holiday, so I'll withdraw the "first class" comment.

As for your pithy putdown, like the F type, it also fails on 3 counts - "young Micra driving woman", "Middle aged (German) lady" and "BMX 3 series". Way to go on discussing the F type with such a learned group of F type target customers.

But they're "engineers" I hear you bellow at your laptop. So was my Grandfather, he built bridges and knew c*ck all about cars. No engineer would ever admit to driving a Micra, even if they actually did.

Toddle off now and go back to your "objective testing" your Sierras around Kingston and Lewes. (By the way, if you're only 10 secs difference between the Sierra and the TVR on your "objective tests", you're using them wrong. I'd stop and take the bus, clearly you're not meant to be driving.) Here you go... http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/gettingaround/maps/buses...

You're welcome.
I think you will quite easily find middle aged ladies are smack in Jag's demographic for the F-Type.

And I fly Nazi Air thankyou smile

filski666

3,841 posts

191 months

Tuesday 2nd October 2012
quotequote all
Personally, I like it, it is nice, but I LOVE the coupe - every time I see it at work I can't help just stopping and looking at it, it is stunning.

And the V8 sounds fecking amazing, the first time you hear the crackle on the overrun I guarantee you will smile smile I still do, every single time one goes past on the little test strip at Whitley.






nbirch

32 posts

201 months

Tuesday 2nd October 2012
quotequote all
DJRC said:
I think you will quite easily find middle aged ladies are smack in Jag's demographic for the F-Type.

And I fly Nazi Air thankyou smile
I see, then that's the reason why so many posters on here seem to like them!

LuS1fer

41,086 posts

244 months

Tuesday 2nd October 2012
quotequote all
Twincam16 said:
J-P said:
Very true - I completely agree with this but Jaguar also have a rich racing heritage, which they have never really capitalised on.
That goes right back to the days of William Lyons, unfortunately. He always saw Jaguar's main business as selling saloon cars and saw the sports-racers as a way of developing engines, brakes and suspension for them. The XK120 and E-type genuinely surprised him in terms of sales as he genuinely couldn't fathom why so many people would want a sports car. Tellingly, the XJ-S project was the last one he directed, and I reckon its lack of sportiness compared with the E-type speaks volumes about the way he approached the design and engineering of a car.

Daft thing is, had Lyons recognised the potential of this racing heritage, I reckon Jaguar would have a long-established tuning wing to rival BMW's M-division for decades now.
The racing heritage was in the 50s. Jaguar tried to capitalise on it in the 70s with the Broadspeed Jags which was a spectacular failure because time had moved on. As the Americans always said in the 60s, you're only as good as your last race.

The XJS was just a logical extension of the fat overweight E-Type the car had grown into but was based on a luxury saloon, the XJ6/12, at that time being vaunted as more refined than the Rolls-Royce, so the luxury XJS was no great surprise. I recall the first brochure was a co-product with Jaeger clothing.

tony wright

1,004 posts

249 months

Tuesday 2nd October 2012
quotequote all
Which model do you think will be the best seller?

Really tempted by the V8 but after adding a few bit's here and there you could buy a brand new XKR S for less.

Edited by tony wright on Tuesday 2nd October 09:40

zebedee

4,589 posts

277 months

Tuesday 2nd October 2012
quotequote all
LuS1fer said:
The racing heritage was in the 50s. Jaguar tried to capitalise on it in the 70s with the Broadspeed Jags which was a spectacular failure because time had moved on. As the Americans always said in the 60s, you're only as good as your last race.

The XJS was just a logical extension of the fat overweight E-Type the car had grown into but was based on a luxury saloon, the XJ6/12, at that time being vaunted as more refined than the Rolls-Royce, so the luxury XJS was no great surprise. I recall the first brochure was a co-product with Jaeger clothing.
They did win Le Mans in 1988 and 1990 though and did a hell of a lot of Group C racing around that time.

DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Tuesday 2nd October 2012
quotequote all
tony wright said:
Which model do you think will be the best seller?

Really tempted by the V8 but after adding a few bit's here and there you could by a brand new XKR S for less.
My guess, the cheapest one. Inline with most asperational cars.

DJRC

23,563 posts

235 months

Tuesday 2nd October 2012
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
tony wright said:
Which model do you think will be the best seller?

Really tempted by the V8 but after adding a few bit's here and there you could by a brand new XKR S for less.
My guess, the cheapest one. Inline with most asperational cars.
Yep. Thats the one I picked to spec up and my figure hit 70k and Im bloody lightweight on the spec sheet!

LuS1fer

41,086 posts

244 months

Tuesday 2nd October 2012
quotequote all
zebedee said:
They did win Le Mans in 1988 and 1990 though and did a hell of a lot of Group C racing around that time.
I'm no avid follower of motorsport but wasn't partcularly aware of that and on that basis, I reckon about 99.9% of customers wouldn't know or don't give a fig. I have to question what benefit motorpsort involvement gives car manufacturers these days. It seems to work for sponsors like Red Bull but not so much the manufacturers. In the 70's Grandstand and world of Sport had a lot of rallying so ford got massive exposure but I don't think Le mans has the same cachet or following.

I think BMW got it right in creating M Cars. The Rover Vitesse was as near as BL ever got (swiftly diluted in the 800 Vitesse) and Audi seem to have hit the nail with the RS and R8. Jag seem to have missed it with their "add an R or RS on the end" approach.

zebedee

4,589 posts

277 months

Tuesday 2nd October 2012
quotequote all
LuS1fer said:
I'm no avid follower of motorsport but wasn't partcularly aware of that and on that basis, I reckon about 99.9% of customers wouldn't know or don't give a fig. I have to question what benefit motorpsort involvement gives car manufacturers these days. It seems to work for sponsors like Red Bull but not so much the manufacturers. In the 70's Grandstand and world of Sport had a lot of rallying so ford got massive exposure but I don't think Le mans has the same cachet or following.

I think BMW got it right in creating M Cars. The Rover Vitesse was as near as BL ever got (swiftly diluted in the 800 Vitesse) and Audi seem to have hit the nail with the RS and R8. Jag seem to have missed it with their "add an R or RS on the end" approach.
Jag's win is famous.

LuS1fer

41,086 posts

244 months

Tuesday 2nd October 2012
quotequote all
zebedee said:
Jag's win is famous.
Not to me or most of the population it isn't.

DJRC

23,563 posts

235 months

Tuesday 2nd October 2012
quotequote all
LuS1fer said:
zebedee said:
Jag's win is famous.
Not to me or most of the population it isn't.
Which wins?

The 50s wins were very famous, everybody bit as much as the GP racing largely because it was the same drivers. Jaguar used that to build a very successful export drive in the 50s and into the 60s.

The Group C win and the journey upto to it was equally as famous in the 80s and the mythology into the 90s. Indeed its pretty much the foundation of the rebirth of Le Mans in British motorsport culture. The trouble is its 20-25yrs ago now, but if you put a Silk Cut Jag on display though, everybody will tell you what it is. Ford let Jaguar abandon its heritage and give it to Audi. Everybody who is now driving an Audi from their increase in sales over the last 15yrs should be in Jags. *Thats* how much of the market Jag have lost.

Jag's first marketing priority should be Le Mans victory.

DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Tuesday 2nd October 2012
quotequote all
DJRC said:
Which wins?

The 50s wins were very famous, everybody bit as much as the GP racing largely because it was the same drivers. Jaguar used that to build a very successful export drive in the 50s and into the 60s.

The Group C win and the journey upto to it was equally as famous in the 80s and the mythology into the 90s. Indeed its pretty much the foundation of the rebirth of Le Mans in British motorsport culture. The trouble is its 20-25yrs ago now, but if you put a Silk Cut Jag on display though, everybody will tell you what it is. Ford let Jaguar abandon its heritage and give it to Audi. Everybody who is now driving an Audi from their increase in sales over the last 15yrs should be in Jags. *Thats* how much of the market Jag have lost.

Jag's first marketing priority should be Le Mans victory.
And remember the lessons of being branded alsorans in F1.

Do it properly. Do it well. Win. Or don't bother.

Initial core market for small Jags will be wives and confirmed bachelors but race wins in the right sport will be vital if they intend to increase their share of the conventional younger male sector. Along side suitable marketing orientation and sponsorships.

FWDRacer

3,564 posts

223 months

Wednesday 3rd October 2012
quotequote all
DJRC said:
Jag's first marketing priority should be Le Mans victory.
yes Absolutely bang on.

zebedee

4,589 posts

277 months

Wednesday 3rd October 2012
quotequote all
LuS1fer said:
zebedee said:
Jag's win is famous.
Not to me or most of the population it isn't.
They all are to British car enthusiasts, so maybe you aren't a British car enthusiast.

Edited to add you live in Wales and have been a Pistonheads member for 9 years so I am staggered that you didn't know about their wins. I think a lot of the population that would be buying a Jag would know something about the marque and that is a big part of the marque. I admit that it is a relatively long time ago now, but reviving Jag's racing heritage would be a lot easier than reviving Bentley's, and their Le Mans win probably did wonders for the marque.

Edited further to add and Bentley are re-reviving their racing heritage already, so hopefully Jaguar won't be far behind (I am ignoring the Gentillozi XK debacle as it was just so bad).

Edited by zebedee on Wednesday 3rd October 10:10


Edited by zebedee on Wednesday 3rd October 10:11

CDP

7,454 posts

253 months

Wednesday 3rd October 2012
quotequote all
FWDRacer said:
DJRC said:
Jag's first marketing priority should be Le Mans victory.
yes Absolutely bang on.
No, I'd say it should be the lesser tapped export markets.

LuS1fer

41,086 posts

244 months

Wednesday 3rd October 2012
quotequote all
zebedee said:
They all are to British car enthusiasts, so maybe you aren't a British car enthusiast.

Edited to add you live in Wales and have been a Pistonheads member for 9 years so I am staggered that you didn't know about their wins. I think a lot of the population that would be buying a Jag would know something about the marque and that is a big part of the marque. I admit that it is a relatively long time ago now, but reviving Jag's racing heritage would be a lot easier than reviving Bentley's, and their Le Mans win probably did wonders for the marque.
I may have been faintly aware of it at the time but if so, it is long forgotten. I recall the 50s Le Mans win when cars were interesting and bore some relation to road cars.

Unfortunately, the romance with Le Mans seems to me to be very much confined to PH and people who go there. Nobody else I know, even those interested in cars, pay any attention to it. In the 50s it has a real PH factor but now it's just a boring endurance race. Not even Corvettes can get me interested. I fear the same will apply to most Jag buyers.

"Can I interest you in a Jaguar?"
"No"
"They've recently won Le Mans in a car totally unrelated to this car, you know"
"Oh that's the clincher then".

"Can I interest you in a Citroen C4?"
"No"
"They won lots of Paris-Dakar rallies"
"So?"

I'm not being obtuse nor trolling but I just don't see it makes any difference these days. I doubt BMW achieve their sales on the back of motorsport either.

J-P

4,350 posts

205 months

Wednesday 3rd October 2012
quotequote all
To be honest most manufacturers are rubbish at this sort of thing. Ferrari and Porsche have done it well for years and AMG have obviously learnt a thing or two from their Stuttgart partners but others are totally shocking! Look at Citroen, world number 1 rally champions for ages and not a single car that would remotely interest an enthusiast until about 2010!