RE: Paris 2012: Honda CR-Z, now almost sporty
Discussion
elementad said:
What is it about that engine that isn't compliant? Or is it more the case that honda are worried profits (and "green image") would be hit because cars with emissions over a certain threshold have a penalty to pay over their general profit?
Having ONE car in their line up that does this in my opinion would at least give Honda slight credibility back. If the punter wants to fork out the best part of a grand as showroom tax that's up to them, but at least they would have their finger in the pie of a performance vehicle again.
Other manufacturers (at least for the minute), still have engines with similar emissions in their line up. Honda COULD if they really wanted to include the 2.0 iVtec im sure.
Its the same reason the Civic Type R sales ended at the last year along withe RX8, they didnt meet EU5 so you cant sell it, these are real emission limits not 'carbon credit' BS. It was evidently deemed by Honda not pursue engineering compliance with that gen Civic coming to end of life, even though Civic sales would probably be higher than a CRZ as it offers hot hatch attributes. IE 4 seats! They could have engineered the 2.0 to EU5 and beyond but it seems Honda have commited the Type R to a 1.6 turbo.... that said there should be nothing stopping the 1.6 finding its way into the CRZ from Honda.Having ONE car in their line up that does this in my opinion would at least give Honda slight credibility back. If the punter wants to fork out the best part of a grand as showroom tax that's up to them, but at least they would have their finger in the pie of a performance vehicle again.
Other manufacturers (at least for the minute), still have engines with similar emissions in their line up. Honda COULD if they really wanted to include the 2.0 iVtec im sure.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
You're right of course, 140bhp would be fun, if the car weighed say 900kg.
But that's the problem with this hybrid technology, it adds so much weight.
It has to be the laziest, poorest excuse for "progress" there is. You want a more economical car? Make it heavier.
Rediculous.
I think you'd getting caught up in hyperbole. The Honda system is very simple and light coupled with light ally petrol engines. its a system in previous guise around 54kg and allows things like alternator deletion and no heavy turbos, cast manifold, intercoolers etc. I'll be interest to see if the lithium is purely a power boost solution or they have taken some weight out of the battery pack..... I just wish they would move the rear seat backs rearward 3 inches!But that's the problem with this hybrid technology, it adds so much weight.
It has to be the laziest, poorest excuse for "progress" there is. You want a more economical car? Make it heavier.
Rediculous.
Verde said:
It's so sad to see how seriously Honda has lost their way. I mean off-the-rails-lost-their-way. Their Acura's don't fill the markets they target (particularly on the high-end), their designs are atrociously ugly with front ends that look like they all should be clearing snow from the road; the legendary Accords are beyond bland and distorted, Civics are lost between markets. Finally their hybrid-mobiles are neither fish nor foul. The CR-Z could have been a hit. A powerful fwd car with the boost from an electric motor. And their other conventional hybrid gets supremely low marks.
I want to love these Honda folks, but they've been off the road and in the ditch for quite some time. Nice lawnmowers though...
V
INDEED.I want to love these Honda folks, but they've been off the road and in the ditch for quite some time. Nice lawnmowers though...
V
Worst of all, one cannot see out of a CR-Z, so a faster engine would be useless.
It is as if the spirit of BL-zebub is alive and kicking in the Tokyo HQ answering product questions no-one dreamed of asking and it's a shame.
Still, the Toyobaru Twins p iss all over the CR-Z from a great height, so not all is lost in the world of fun-to-drive.
Good looking car but a completely missed opportunity. It could have been the spiritual successor to the CRX but it's now (and always will be) an odd ball choice with a confused image. This is reflected in the sales figures I suspect.
Maybe on the third or fourth upgrade it will get the real power it deserves, but replacement must be in the pipeline anyway.
Maybe on the third or fourth upgrade it will get the real power it deserves, but replacement must be in the pipeline anyway.
JonnyVTEC said:
I think you'd getting caught up in hyperbole. The Honda system is very simple and light coupled with light ally petrol engines. its a system in previous guise around 54kg and allows things like alternator deletion and no heavy turbos, cast manifold, intercoolers etc. I'll be interest to see if the lithium is purely a power boost solution or they have taken some weight out of the battery pack..... I just wish they would move the rear seat backs rearward 3 inches!
I don't think I have, what does the car weigh? 1350kg or something?A 1350kg can indeed be fun, I should know I had an M3csl & an R26.R that weighed about the same.
Unfortunately they had around 340 & 230bhp respecedly.
I maintain it's lazy engineering. I'm all for people building economical small cars, but make them small!
How hard (or expensive) would it be to develop a 140bhp sub 1000kg car that still passed ncap with flying colours?
Or would it be easier (cheaper) to just build a car in the normal fashion & chuck in the existing extra battery technology they already have, knowing that anything tagged "hybrid" will get the punters excited?
Myself, I occasionally do look at buying a small nippy city car that's more economical but when a little abarth 500 weighs around 1000kg & gets 35mpg whilst being fun, the hybrid technology won't get a look in
jbi said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
How hard (or expensive) would it be to develop a 140bhp sub 1000kg car that still passed ncap with flying colours?
It could be done... but you would need to use lots of expensive materials, thus defeating the point of a small, cheap and fun car.A purpose built light weight sports car should not be unacheivable.
I can undertstand the points on here but I am not sure I agree. Honda are not trying to cater for the average PH reader with this car. As well as this think about Honda's strategy, reading another article on the civic Type R due for release in 2014/15 gives us a good idea that right now they are getting their Hybrid technology out on the market whilst the market requires/wants it. I completely understand what Honda are doing right now with this in mind.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I don't think I have, what does the car weigh? 1350kg or something?
A 1350kg can indeed be fun, I should know I had an M3csl & an R26.R that weighed about the same.
Unfortunately they had around 340 & 230bhp respecedly.
How hard (or expensive) would it be to develop a 140bhp sub 1000kg car that still passed ncap with flying colours?
Or would it be easier (cheaper) to just build a car in the normal fashion & chuck in the existing extra battery technology they already have, knowing that anything tagged "hybrid" will get the punters excited?
It's 1200kg.A 1350kg can indeed be fun, I should know I had an M3csl & an R26.R that weighed about the same.
Unfortunately they had around 340 & 230bhp respecedly.
How hard (or expensive) would it be to develop a 140bhp sub 1000kg car that still passed ncap with flying colours?
Or would it be easier (cheaper) to just build a car in the normal fashion & chuck in the existing extra battery technology they already have, knowing that anything tagged "hybrid" will get the punters excited?
Those two cars... Genuinely fun... On the road? Give over.
Would KERS make people more excited? Seems to be the case.
My close friend owns one. It's kinda of an ongoing comedy with it. A lot of people calling it the old man or green car and that it has rubbish back seats. He seems to love it though, so I guess they are alright.
It barely had the legs to outrun my warm (like... room temperature) hatch. A Twingo GT (100bhp). I don't think they get very impressive economy either do they? Mid 40's? 50 on a run. I get mid 40's as well, and I have usable rear seats.
It barely had the legs to outrun my warm (like... room temperature) hatch. A Twingo GT (100bhp). I don't think they get very impressive economy either do they? Mid 40's? 50 on a run. I get mid 40's as well, and I have usable rear seats.
Look chaps, I hate- and I do mean hate- all of the available hybrids currently on sale right now. When people get going at me (being a known petrolhead) about say the Prius for example, it makes my blood boil. Do they listen when I tell them that the extra 5-10 mpg is utterly negated by the extra energy necessary to create, let alone break down their halo model? No they do not. However, as enthusiasts we are smart enough to know that there must be a place- not necessarily a huge one, but a place nonetheless- for an attempt at least to keep the misguided world-warriors happy. And in order to do so, we have to learn and develop tech... And the only way to do so given the lack of previous info is trial and error.
So yes, these cars are ultimately rubbish. But it's a work in progress, and we need the big brands to continue to do so in order to eventually keep funding the cars we love (and the ones we love to hate).
Let's thinks about the bigger picture, and come on, just because we don't agree doesn't make it wrong, right? Just don't buy them!
Mini rant over and out.
So yes, these cars are ultimately rubbish. But it's a work in progress, and we need the big brands to continue to do so in order to eventually keep funding the cars we love (and the ones we love to hate).
Let's thinks about the bigger picture, and come on, just because we don't agree doesn't make it wrong, right? Just don't buy them!
Mini rant over and out.
On paper, this is exactly what I am looking for.
Something that the girlfriend can drive to and from work without spending too much on petrol, while being interesting and fun enough not to bore me to tears when I have to drive it.
They even cited my other car, the Elise, as a vehicle whose dynamics they wanted to aspire to.
I'm yet to drive or even sit in one yet, but apart from ubiquity it seems it fails to trump a Mini Cooper in any aspect. The same Mini that is at the end of it's life cycle. The concept is great, it just does n't sound like they have quite pulled it off.
Something that the girlfriend can drive to and from work without spending too much on petrol, while being interesting and fun enough not to bore me to tears when I have to drive it.
They even cited my other car, the Elise, as a vehicle whose dynamics they wanted to aspire to.
I'm yet to drive or even sit in one yet, but apart from ubiquity it seems it fails to trump a Mini Cooper in any aspect. The same Mini that is at the end of it's life cycle. The concept is great, it just does n't sound like they have quite pulled it off.
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