RE: PH blog: interactive experience
Discussion
Ex Boy Racer said:
It's an interesting point. On the surface, your article makes it obvious that the mini is the better, safer car - as expected. But then... does ABS, traction control and all the other safety elements now standard in most cars allow the driver's mind to wander, to stop concentrating? In which case, paradoxically, increased safety features actually might be doing the opposite of what they should.
Someone once said that the best safety feature any car could have would be a six inch dagger sticking straight out from the middle of the steering wheel...
There is actually quite a bit of research going trying to figure that out. I believe the theory is called risk compensation.Someone once said that the best safety feature any car could have would be a six inch dagger sticking straight out from the middle of the steering wheel...
loved this article and agree, the point of modern motoring appears to not be driving but to get from point A to point B as safely and a economically as possible. There is nothing wrong with this for most people. For PH'ers though we require a more vivid driving experience which will be harder and harder to find on the road until it is almost wiped out or at least entirely illegal, if google have their way.
On a related point I think driving school cars should have no driver aids as you don't learn car control, what is the point of having an emergency stop in a driving test if the car has ABS ?
the ideal car to learn to drive in is a Morris Minor, the ideal car to pass your test in is something manufactured more recently.
On a related point I think driving school cars should have no driver aids as you don't learn car control, what is the point of having an emergency stop in a driving test if the car has ABS ?
the ideal car to learn to drive in is a Morris Minor, the ideal car to pass your test in is something manufactured more recently.
Ex Boy Racer said:
It's an interesting point. On the surface, your article makes it obvious that the mini is the better, safer car - as expected. But then... does ABS, traction control and all the other safety elements now standard in most cars allow the driver's mind to wander, to stop concentrating? In which case, paradoxically, increased safety features actually might be doing the opposite of what they should.
Someone once said that the best safety feature any car could have would be a six inch dagger sticking straight out from the middle of the steering wheel...
It also means that when you do finally exceed what the computers are capable of dealing with; YOU. ARE. F*CKED.Someone once said that the best safety feature any car could have would be a six inch dagger sticking straight out from the middle of the steering wheel...
You know, I was just commenting on this on the conversion on the new Renault Clio RS. I actually ended up taking most of it out again as it looked like a bit of a rant.
I think new cars don't get the driver involved enough in the process of driving. You have all these Nanny features that keep you on the black stuff, and just to remove you further from the drive you now have dual clutch semi-auto transmission, which to me is just a posh, technical way to say its just an automatic.
I think with new cars you struggle to make that connection, a bond even, and you become more of the boss to the car and telling it what to do, rather than working with the car.
I have an E36 M3 in good old fashioned manual. I get ABS, a terrible stereo and the rest is on me. And you know what, that suits me fine. If I put myself in a situation, I want to the one that gets me out....or at least attempts. For me that’s what driving is all about. Team work between man and machine. I want to go for a drive, not be taken for one.
I think new cars don't get the driver involved enough in the process of driving. You have all these Nanny features that keep you on the black stuff, and just to remove you further from the drive you now have dual clutch semi-auto transmission, which to me is just a posh, technical way to say its just an automatic.
I think with new cars you struggle to make that connection, a bond even, and you become more of the boss to the car and telling it what to do, rather than working with the car.
I have an E36 M3 in good old fashioned manual. I get ABS, a terrible stereo and the rest is on me. And you know what, that suits me fine. If I put myself in a situation, I want to the one that gets me out....or at least attempts. For me that’s what driving is all about. Team work between man and machine. I want to go for a drive, not be taken for one.
Rawwr said:
Ex Boy Racer said:
It's an interesting point. On the surface, your article makes it obvious that the mini is the better, safer car - as expected. But then... does ABS, traction control and all the other safety elements now standard in most cars allow the driver's mind to wander, to stop concentrating? In which case, paradoxically, increased safety features actually might be doing the opposite of what they should.
Someone once said that the best safety feature any car could have would be a six inch dagger sticking straight out from the middle of the steering wheel...
It also means that when you do finally exceed what the computers are capable of dealing with; YOU. ARE. F*CKED.Someone once said that the best safety feature any car could have would be a six inch dagger sticking straight out from the middle of the steering wheel...
IMHO a classic driver's car is a flawed car. But for the right reasons. The principal lack of NVH refinement gives the driver direct feedback on what the car is doing. Now transplant the same ethos to a modern car and the driver will criticise the lack of development in the car.
As car enthusiasts we don't always judge cars on a level playing field. But that's the beauty. If cars were easy to rationalise, conclusions would be easy to make and we'd end up driving one make of car until the retirement home calls.
As car enthusiasts we don't always judge cars on a level playing field. But that's the beauty. If cars were easy to rationalise, conclusions would be easy to make and we'd end up driving one make of car until the retirement home calls.
I'd agree with what most people say on here.
I love driving our Tiv, had a "moment" the other day in the wet by accident, just come off a roundabout in a straight line. It's a great way (assuming nothing happens) of reminding you of the dangers of driving and what can happen.
All that being said, I'd like to have ABS and TC in the Tiv (Flame suit on) that I could turn off if the mood took me.
I love driving our Tiv, had a "moment" the other day in the wet by accident, just come off a roundabout in a straight line. It's a great way (assuming nothing happens) of reminding you of the dangers of driving and what can happen.
All that being said, I'd like to have ABS and TC in the Tiv (Flame suit on) that I could turn off if the mood took me.
kwak said:
Ex Boy Racer said:
It's an interesting point. On the surface, your article makes it obvious that the mini is the better, safer car - as expected. But then... does ABS, traction control and all the other safety elements now standard in most cars allow the driver's mind to wander, to stop concentrating? In which case, paradoxically, increased safety features actually might be doing the opposite of what they should.
Someone once said that the best safety feature any car could have would be a six inch dagger sticking straight out from the middle of the steering wheel...
There is actually quite a bit of research going trying to figure that out. I believe the theory is called risk compensation.Someone once said that the best safety feature any car could have would be a six inch dagger sticking straight out from the middle of the steering wheel...
I do agree with Garlick, although I remember my trip on the A70 to join the M74 then M6 in Feb this year, a snowy/icy/often freezing-fog journey from Ayrshire to Birmingham. Driving with concentration at the limits of the conditions, I was appreciative of ABS ASC etc although trying not to activate them!
Know just what you mean with this comparison.
Can see full well how the majority of car owners want their car to get them from A to B with the least effort and concentration.
But if you call yourself a 'driver' then the act of driving the car will also be important. Doesn't mean you won't want ABS and other safety aids, though it should mean you want to feel more connected to the car and its behaviour on the road.
I find that driving the Strat definitely makes you think about how hard you squeeze the throttle, press the brakes, turn the steering wheel. Getting an idea of what slip angles mean in terms of road/tyre interaction, rather than just theory. Other theoretical subjects become real-world experiences: understeer, oversteer, lift-off and power-on differences, limited-slip differentials, trail braking, cadence braking, 'racing lines', pendulum effect, brake balance, turn-in, four-wheel-drift, terminal understeer, tank-slappers, weight transfer. All of these things are more noticeable on simpler cars. Not just faster ones, I might add. Getting to experience these things from a fun car is what I class as DRIVING
Can see full well how the majority of car owners want their car to get them from A to B with the least effort and concentration.
But if you call yourself a 'driver' then the act of driving the car will also be important. Doesn't mean you won't want ABS and other safety aids, though it should mean you want to feel more connected to the car and its behaviour on the road.
I find that driving the Strat definitely makes you think about how hard you squeeze the throttle, press the brakes, turn the steering wheel. Getting an idea of what slip angles mean in terms of road/tyre interaction, rather than just theory. Other theoretical subjects become real-world experiences: understeer, oversteer, lift-off and power-on differences, limited-slip differentials, trail braking, cadence braking, 'racing lines', pendulum effect, brake balance, turn-in, four-wheel-drift, terminal understeer, tank-slappers, weight transfer. All of these things are more noticeable on simpler cars. Not just faster ones, I might add. Getting to experience these things from a fun car is what I class as DRIVING
New Scot said:
kwak said:
Ex Boy Racer said:
It's an interesting point. On the surface, your article makes it obvious that the mini is the better, safer car - as expected. But then... does ABS, traction control and all the other safety elements now standard in most cars allow the driver's mind to wander, to stop concentrating? In which case, paradoxically, increased safety features actually might be doing the opposite of what they should.
Someone once said that the best safety feature any car could have would be a six inch dagger sticking straight out from the middle of the steering wheel...
There is actually quite a bit of research going trying to figure that out. I believe the theory is called risk compensation.Someone once said that the best safety feature any car could have would be a six inch dagger sticking straight out from the middle of the steering wheel...
I do agree with Garlick, although I remember my trip on the A70 to join the M74 then M6 in Feb this year, a snowy/icy/often freezing-fog journey from Ayrshire to Birmingham. Driving with concentration at the limits of the conditions, I was appreciative of ABS ASC etc although trying not to activate them!
Whatever, while it could certainly be that risk compensation is making more dangerous drivers, working against the benefits of safer cars and roads, RTA statistics suggest that the safer cars and roads (or better training or whatever) are winning this particular battle. So risk compensation might be reducing the benefits, but it is not neutralising them.
There is something to be said for a modern car though. As much as I like my TVR it is hard work, while the barge (520d) gets from A to B without tiring the driver too much. Both are good at what they do and TVR is much more fun when in the mood.
I think whoever said "learn to drive without aids then drive with them" is probably on the right lines for the average Joe. That leaves cars without aids to be driven when in the mood for them.
Having said that my Pug 205 is not rally hard to drive in the wet or dark and also has no driver aids. No aids is not equal to a car that is "interesting" to drive in the wet.
I think whoever said "learn to drive without aids then drive with them" is probably on the right lines for the average Joe. That leaves cars without aids to be driven when in the mood for them.
Having said that my Pug 205 is not rally hard to drive in the wet or dark and also has no driver aids. No aids is not equal to a car that is "interesting" to drive in the wet.
Risk compensation was identified years ago among Volvo drivers. Research proved they were quantifiably less aware than drivers of other cars because they 'knew they were safe'.
Remember driving the first TVR Griffith test car (the metallic grey one) down a narrow and bumpy back street in Teddington, at a speed I'd never countenance now, and thinking that the connection between the steering wheel and the direction of travel was sketchy to say the least. Later on that week I cut my thumb open on the edge of the steering wheel spoke trying to get the thing in order while exiting a roundabout near Hampton Court.
Point being that I still remember both those TVR incidents as clear as day, whereas I couldn't tell you with much certainty what I was doing last Friday.
Remember driving the first TVR Griffith test car (the metallic grey one) down a narrow and bumpy back street in Teddington, at a speed I'd never countenance now, and thinking that the connection between the steering wheel and the direction of travel was sketchy to say the least. Later on that week I cut my thumb open on the edge of the steering wheel spoke trying to get the thing in order while exiting a roundabout near Hampton Court.
Point being that I still remember both those TVR incidents as clear as day, whereas I couldn't tell you with much certainty what I was doing last Friday.
Alfanatic said:
Whatever, while it could certainly be that risk compensation is making more dangerous drivers, working against the benefits of safer cars and roads, RTA statistics suggest that the safer cars and roads (or better training or whatever) are winning this particular battle. So risk compensation might be reducing the benefits, but it is not neutralising them.
Usually what we see is injury/death statistics, which isn't a good measure of the quality of drivers, since in exactly the same crash, you'd be significantly better off in a modern heavily reinforced car with airbags, crumple zones, etc., than you would be in an car from the 80s. If there were statistics on the number of crashes that'd be a better measure (they'd need to be adjusted to take into account increased car usage too).Thing is, we have yet to see the long-term effects of having cars with extensive driving aids as people who have driven without them before, aren't likely to change their driving overnight in the sense of 'I now have ESP, so I don't have to worry about braking mid-corner or planting the throttle 'too much, too soon'.' If you have learnt to drive properly, chaces are you'll continue to do so, only slowly regressing over time.
However advanced driving and racing license course trainers, when asked, all agree that the levels of vehicle control within young(ish) drivers have noticeably fallen over the past 15-20 years. Part is the cars letting people get away with bad driving (up to a point, no driving aid can bend the laws of physics after all), another is that society has taken a dim view on people trying to hone their drivng skills in public - where a generation ago it was accepted practice that a novice driver would do some skid/drifting practice in a deserted parking lot come the first snow, now the window lickers of this world will be sooner inclined to call the plod.
Over longer periods of time, taking away the obvious mechanisms of control and consequence from drivers in order to make things idiot proof, will surely lead to the creation of a better class of idiot. This has to a greater or lesser extent been proven to be the case in most aspects of life, I don't see how it would be any different with driving.
However advanced driving and racing license course trainers, when asked, all agree that the levels of vehicle control within young(ish) drivers have noticeably fallen over the past 15-20 years. Part is the cars letting people get away with bad driving (up to a point, no driving aid can bend the laws of physics after all), another is that society has taken a dim view on people trying to hone their drivng skills in public - where a generation ago it was accepted practice that a novice driver would do some skid/drifting practice in a deserted parking lot come the first snow, now the window lickers of this world will be sooner inclined to call the plod.
Over longer periods of time, taking away the obvious mechanisms of control and consequence from drivers in order to make things idiot proof, will surely lead to the creation of a better class of idiot. This has to a greater or lesser extent been proven to be the case in most aspects of life, I don't see how it would be any different with driving.
Garlick has hit the nail on the head.
I was out in the Caterham on Saturday - I've only owned it a month and after driving hot hatchbacks for the last 4 years it's quite a different animal.
I was driving along a narrow bumpy road, sheep either side and not lots of blind bends. I was going at a reasonable pace, as fast as I could comfortably go, only to find a white Astra van behind me, having no problems tailgating me in the twistier sections. I can only imagine he was frustrated at how slow the kit car in front of him was going, while I on the other hand was sat 4" off the floor, concentrating hard to make sure nothing ran out in front of me, and that there were no pot-holes on my route.
I can only imagine he had the radio on and driving the road required very little concentration, while I was, like Garlick said, grinding my teeth and trying to get the car around the bends without too much drama.
I do know however, who was having the most fun
I was out in the Caterham on Saturday - I've only owned it a month and after driving hot hatchbacks for the last 4 years it's quite a different animal.
I was driving along a narrow bumpy road, sheep either side and not lots of blind bends. I was going at a reasonable pace, as fast as I could comfortably go, only to find a white Astra van behind me, having no problems tailgating me in the twistier sections. I can only imagine he was frustrated at how slow the kit car in front of him was going, while I on the other hand was sat 4" off the floor, concentrating hard to make sure nothing ran out in front of me, and that there were no pot-holes on my route.
I can only imagine he had the radio on and driving the road required very little concentration, while I was, like Garlick said, grinding my teeth and trying to get the car around the bends without too much drama.
I do know however, who was having the most fun
One thing to say over and above what I wrote originally.
I am in no doubt that if I took that Cooper D and my Chimaera to an unfamiliar track I would put in a faster lap in the Mini before I did the same in the TVR.
It grips and accelerates without a second thought, and the worst I'm going to get is a bit of understeer of maybe a chirp from the ABS under hard braking. In the TVR I'd need to find my feet and get an understanding of how the car feels whereas I'd tool about from the off in the Mini.
I'm sure there are times when a chap in a modern, fast saloon follows my Chim down a B-Road and wonders why I'm not pulling away from him. He's probably quite relaxed in there with the autobox in Drive and a wallop of diesel torque to power him along. Me (or us PHers) will be putting in more effort to get the same job done.
I think that's why so many drivers think they are fast and talented...in their new car it's easy to tell yourself this. Give them something different to press on in and it will be a different story.
Note: I'm not knocking safety devices at all, I like having them too and car tech has reached an amazing level. I guess time moves on...once making an Espresso was an art, today you pop in a capsule and press a button. Life just gets easier and easier.
Edit: framerateuk, we share similar views
I am in no doubt that if I took that Cooper D and my Chimaera to an unfamiliar track I would put in a faster lap in the Mini before I did the same in the TVR.
It grips and accelerates without a second thought, and the worst I'm going to get is a bit of understeer of maybe a chirp from the ABS under hard braking. In the TVR I'd need to find my feet and get an understanding of how the car feels whereas I'd tool about from the off in the Mini.
I'm sure there are times when a chap in a modern, fast saloon follows my Chim down a B-Road and wonders why I'm not pulling away from him. He's probably quite relaxed in there with the autobox in Drive and a wallop of diesel torque to power him along. Me (or us PHers) will be putting in more effort to get the same job done.
I think that's why so many drivers think they are fast and talented...in their new car it's easy to tell yourself this. Give them something different to press on in and it will be a different story.
Note: I'm not knocking safety devices at all, I like having them too and car tech has reached an amazing level. I guess time moves on...once making an Espresso was an art, today you pop in a capsule and press a button. Life just gets easier and easier.
Edit: framerateuk, we share similar views
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