RE: Caterham confirms supercharged R600
Discussion
blindswelledrat said:
Adma/HR
What this boils down to is purely opinion.
In your view £45k represents good value due to the high costs from a niche company. It is a valid opinion, and as this thread demonstrates, one shared by many.
In my view £45k represents poor value because the net result of those high costs are not very much car for your money compared with alernatives. This is an equally valid opinion.
You have to take the normal car buyer's mentality and turn it upon it's head.What this boils down to is purely opinion.
In your view £45k represents good value due to the high costs from a niche company. It is a valid opinion, and as this thread demonstrates, one shared by many.
In my view £45k represents poor value because the net result of those high costs are not very much car for your money compared with alernatives. This is an equally valid opinion.
If I was spending £45k on an everyday car, I'd be mighty disappointed if it came with no AC/PAS/electric everything/leather seats/ABS/space for luggage.
If I was spending £45k on a brand new super high performance lightweight car, I'd be mighty disappointed if it had 100bhp/ton, terrible handling, no feel or character etc etc.
TheDeadPrussian said:
The car pictured in the article is on slicks - will it race on slicks?
@ArosaMike - is it testing at Rockingham on slicks at the moment or is it on CR500s/something else?
R300s race on CR500s but as far as I know, everything R400 upwards gets slicks. The R300 guys struggle to manage the temperature on the 205-section rears on their cars, and they 'only' have 175bhp.@ArosaMike - is it testing at Rockingham on slicks at the moment or is it on CR500s/something else?
HustleRussell said:
You have to take the normal car buyer's mentality and turn it upon it's head.
If I was spending £45k on an everyday car, I'd be mighty disappointed if it came with no AC/PAS/electric everything/leather seats/ABS/space for luggage.
If I was spending £45k on a brand new super high performance lightweight car, I'd be mighty disappointed if it had 100bhp/ton, terrible handling, no feel or character etc etc.
I agree. But speaking for myself, I would also be dissapointed if, for my £45k I got an uncharismatic 2 litre ford engine and 'only' 275 bhp.If I was spending £45k on an everyday car, I'd be mighty disappointed if it came with no AC/PAS/electric everything/leather seats/ABS/space for luggage.
If I was spending £45k on a brand new super high performance lightweight car, I'd be mighty disappointed if it had 100bhp/ton, terrible handling, no feel or character etc etc.
I just need better value for money than that. I simply couldnt spend that much money on a Caterham, I would simply buy a much cheaper caterham and feel like I was getting at least some value for money.
blindswelledrat said:
I agree. But speaking for myself, I would also be dissapointed if, for my £45k I got an uncharismatic 2 litre ford engine and 'only' 275 bhp.
I just need better value for money than that. I simply couldnt spend that much money on a Caterham, I would simply buy a much cheaper caterham and feel like I was getting at least some value for money.
If that motor is anything like the 230bhp, 8300rpm normally aspirated lump in my C400 race car the last word I would use is uncharismatic.I just need better value for money than that. I simply couldnt spend that much money on a Caterham, I would simply buy a much cheaper caterham and feel like I was getting at least some value for money.
blindswelledrat said:
I agree. But speaking for myself, I would also be dissapointed if, for my £45k I got an uncharismatic 2 litre ford engine and 'only' 275 bhp.
I just need better value for money than that. I simply couldnt spend that much money on a Caterham, I would simply buy a much cheaper caterham and feel like I was getting at least some value for money.
I'm not going to try and impose my opinions upon you, but I think maybe you need to drive one to 'get' it...I just need better value for money than that. I simply couldnt spend that much money on a Caterham, I would simply buy a much cheaper caterham and feel like I was getting at least some value for money.
I forcefully reject 'uncharismatic' though, If a Caterham doesn't have charisma, I don't know what does.
P.S. My Caterham has 100bhp and cost me less than a sixth of a new R600. I am happy enough!
ETA: darn, OJ beat me to it!
As we're finding, cost is absolute, value is relative (and personal).
Personally I don't see value in the expensive watches that many PHers seem to like. That doesn't mean I think the watch manufacturer shouldn't be selling watches at those prices or that those who buy them are foolish, merely that they have different value-judgements to me.
Personally I don't see value in the expensive watches that many PHers seem to like. That doesn't mean I think the watch manufacturer shouldn't be selling watches at those prices or that those who buy them are foolish, merely that they have different value-judgements to me.
ewenm said:
As we're finding, cost is absolute, value is relative (and personal).
Personally I don't see value in the expensive watches that many PHers seem to like. That doesn't mean I think the watch manufacturer shouldn't be selling watches at those prices or that those who buy them are foolish, merely that they have different value-judgements to me.
Not to mention that it is bafflingly common for someone to spend simular money to an R600 on a new, high-spec luxury car... with a 4 cylinder diesel engine! Personally I don't see value in the expensive watches that many PHers seem to like. That doesn't mean I think the watch manufacturer shouldn't be selling watches at those prices or that those who buy them are foolish, merely that they have different value-judgements to me.
shoestring7 said:
I can remember a long and illuminating conversation not so long ago with a couple of senior Caterham engineers.
Both agreed that around 180-200bhp was the sweetspot for a road-going Caterham. Any more just brought frustration.
SS7
^ This. People asking for number plates for any other reason that driving it to and from a race track haven't driven a high powered track Caterfield on the road. It is possibly the most frustrating thing in the world. Both agreed that around 180-200bhp was the sweetspot for a road-going Caterham. Any more just brought frustration.
SS7
For mainly practical reasons. You sit with your head at bumper height to normal cars and fairly central. Cool, but you can't see through cars in front and have to swing into the middle of the road to see if it's clear to overtake. You can't see over even small rises in the road. You can't see over even small hedges/walls or around corners. Basically everything is unsighted. When you do overtake the car in front, it's so bloody quick that within moments you've caught up to the next queue of traffic and the whole game starts again.
Added to that is making a track car usable on the road. To make it go well around track means stiffer/harder suspension than you'd like on the road. Indeed, geared towards this sort of power it'll probably have a sequential. Race sequentials don't like to pootle.
Honestly, you're far better on a bike if you want to go fast as f**k on the road.
For a road Caterfield, s
tty narrow tyres, more compliant suspension and somewhere around 150hp is all you need to have an absolute riot.HustleRussell said:
I'm not going to try and impose my opinions upon you, but I think maybe you need to drive one to 'get' it...
I forcefully reject 'uncharismatic' though, If a Caterham doesn't have charisma, I don't know what does.
P.S. My Caterham has 100bhp and cost me less than a sixth of a new R600. I am happy enough!
ETA: darn, OJ beat me to it!
As would I be for your £8k Caterham. To me, an £8 Caterham is exactly why a caterham is brilliant. You cannot have more fun for that money. Im not referring to Caterham as uncharismatic, Im referring to a 2 litre FOrd engine as uncharismatic. I admit thats an assumption without knowledge of the 275hp variant, so Im prepared to be wrong.I forcefully reject 'uncharismatic' though, If a Caterham doesn't have charisma, I don't know what does.
P.S. My Caterham has 100bhp and cost me less than a sixth of a new R600. I am happy enough!
ETA: darn, OJ beat me to it!
As you say, theres no way either of us will force our opinions on the other because they are completely subjective so they are both absolutely correct for us.
Blindswelledrat - It's clear you don't think this car is value for money, neither would my gran or my wife or indeed countless other people, this is what makes the world, a variety of people and their desires.
I see you drive an FQ360 Mitsubishi, a nice car and certainly very capable at carrying 4 people around this country of ours and I am also very sure it would be very quick on a track day. As an allrounder, it's probably hard to beat and well worth whatever it cost new, circa £40k I would think.
When it comes to valuing machines, for which the Caterham is, you have to take into account the economies of scale as previously mentioned. You have to take into account the cost or developing this piece of kit and how many production items they are going to sell to recover that development cost. In addition, the sum of the parts that Caterham put on the car will probably exceed £15k whereas the Focus you decribed earlier is probably less than £4k and then you have to pay the people to screw it all together, the Focus will take about 2 minutes to build with several hundred people and the Caterham several days with 2 or 3 people employed. Then there are all the costs associated with running a business.
Now we come back to is it good value? Let's take what it is designed to do, go fast on a track, how much would your Evo cost for a track day? Brakes knackered, tyres knackered, fuel bill for sub 6mpg and wear to suspension, etc etc. The Caterham, which will be travelling considerably quicker lets not forget and will probably cost half your bill...
It comes down to the end use, you could have a Radical as also shown on the front page of PH for £45k with just 185hp, or a Caterham with 265hp both of which are designed for the track and will ultimately be reasonably priced considering the activity.
Would I buy one, well no, it's far too expensive for me, but I bet there will be plenty of people who will, but then we come back to economies of scale
I see you drive an FQ360 Mitsubishi, a nice car and certainly very capable at carrying 4 people around this country of ours and I am also very sure it would be very quick on a track day. As an allrounder, it's probably hard to beat and well worth whatever it cost new, circa £40k I would think.
When it comes to valuing machines, for which the Caterham is, you have to take into account the economies of scale as previously mentioned. You have to take into account the cost or developing this piece of kit and how many production items they are going to sell to recover that development cost. In addition, the sum of the parts that Caterham put on the car will probably exceed £15k whereas the Focus you decribed earlier is probably less than £4k and then you have to pay the people to screw it all together, the Focus will take about 2 minutes to build with several hundred people and the Caterham several days with 2 or 3 people employed. Then there are all the costs associated with running a business.
Now we come back to is it good value? Let's take what it is designed to do, go fast on a track, how much would your Evo cost for a track day? Brakes knackered, tyres knackered, fuel bill for sub 6mpg and wear to suspension, etc etc. The Caterham, which will be travelling considerably quicker lets not forget and will probably cost half your bill...
It comes down to the end use, you could have a Radical as also shown on the front page of PH for £45k with just 185hp, or a Caterham with 265hp both of which are designed for the track and will ultimately be reasonably priced considering the activity.
Would I buy one, well no, it's far too expensive for me, but I bet there will be plenty of people who will, but then we come back to economies of scale
I too like the K series. Just to put it in perspective I've had Atoms and now have a CSR260 Caterham, my uncharismatic lump revs to 8000 on throttle bodies with reworked internals and produces 263bhp and 200ftlb albeit at 6200rpm so probably a bit higher than the supercharged car. I understand the engine is around £8000 form Cosworth direct!
Your £45k is actually 37.5 before Vat, so their isn't much money to spend on the car and make a profit.
Your £45k is actually 37.5 before Vat, so their isn't much money to spend on the car and make a profit.
£45k on one of these or £45K on the Radical SR1 and a race season?????
I think The Radical SR1 + Race season makes more sense.
I agree with the comments that the R600 will be too much for road use, my Fisher Fury with +/-300bhp/ton is plenty to be getting on with on the road (in the dry).
I think The Radical SR1 + Race season makes more sense.
I agree with the comments that the R600 will be too much for road use, my Fisher Fury with +/-300bhp/ton is plenty to be getting on with on the road (in the dry).
Fish said:
I too like the K series. Just to put it in perspective I've had Atoms and now have a CSR260 Caterham, my uncharismatic lump revs to 8000 on throttle bodies with reworked internals and produces 263bhp and 200ftlb albeit at 6200rpm so probably a bit higher than the supercharged car. I understand the engine is around £8000 form Cosworth direct!
Your £45k is actually 37.5 before Vat, so their isn't much money to spend on the car and make a profit.
And car taxYour £45k is actually 37.5 before Vat, so their isn't much money to spend on the car and make a profit.
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