Liquid nitrogen powered cars - the future?

Liquid nitrogen powered cars - the future?

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Discussion

thinfourth2

32,414 posts

203 months

Thursday 18th October 2012
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AnotherClarkey said:
It seems to me that the energy to run the car comes from the relatively warmer ambient conditions. By supplying liquid nitrogen you have just created an opportunity to exploit that. Doesn't mean that it is particularly efficient or necessarily a good idea.
The main advantage is

1 It isn't an EV and as we all know using an EV makes your willy fall off

2 For normal people that do 5000 miles a day you can instantly refill the tank where as freaks like myself that do 30 miles a day it is of no advantage


Asides from that it seems like a bloody stupid idea. You might as well just use compressed air from a compressor in your garage/basement/broom cupboard and use all the lovely waste heat to heat your home.

CDP

7,454 posts

253 months

Thursday 18th October 2012
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thinfourth2 said:
Asides from that it seems like a bloody stupid idea. You might as well just use compressed air from a compressor in your garage/basement/broom cupboard and use all the lovely waste heat to heat your home.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_car

thinfourth2

32,414 posts

203 months

Thursday 18th October 2012
quotequote all
CDP said:
thinfourth2 said:
Asides from that it seems like a bloody stupid idea. You might as well just use compressed air from a compressor in your garage/basement/broom cupboard and use all the lovely waste heat to heat your home.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_car
Oh loads of problems with a compressed air car but so does the fossil fueled car but we ignore those problems as we have grown up with them. We ignore the air pollution and tanks full of stuff the burns really well.

The other fudemental problem that alternative fueled cars is the desire to replace fossil fueled cars. I don't think we should do this. Fossil fueled cars are utterly brilliant at some things namely fun and long distance travel but crap at other things. In town city centre driving and farting about doing 10 miles a day.

So we should think of complementing the current cars not replacing them.

renrut

1,478 posts

204 months

Thursday 18th October 2012
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Zad said:
Long term, the solution is to take the CO2 condensed from power stations etc (and currently planned to be pumped under the sea for storage) and apply a cheap energy source, such as equatorial solar power. With the assistance of water and some cunning chemistry, you can synthesise high energy density organic molecules. e.g. Diesel. Which is then easily tankered back to the rest of the world.

Money for the despotic African dictators developing world, money for the oil companies which would run the system anyway, and an easy+fast fuel delivery system for vehicles with an already well developed technology.
Yup. That's the natural evolved energy storage mechanism, is completely sustainable (its lasted for a get few million years so far) and doesn't require much more than the right crops and some farm land. But I don't think there are any patents on it to covert and control so it'll probably never take off.

bigricho

167 posts

152 months

Thursday 18th October 2012
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Anyone heard anything about Peter Dearman's work? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOImbv_xcT8

Talksteer

4,843 posts

232 months

Friday 19th October 2012
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xRIEx said:
Flibble said:
If you fill an enclosed space with it you will suffocate due to lack of oxygen though, but that's not instant.
Maybe 15s to unconsciousness in 100% nitrogen, then 5ish minutes to death.
Ergo if your garage was filled with the stuff you'd have to be pretty good a spotting the signs of hypoxia or within a relatively short period of time you would be unconscious and thus as good as dead unless somebody else who was also attuned to the risks rescued you.

If we are taking about quantities of liquid nitrogen capable of moving cars we are talking about hundreds of kilos easily enough to fill a garage or a small house over the period of a week or so.

YankeePorker

Original Poster:

4,763 posts

240 months

Friday 19th October 2012
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thinfourth2 said:
How you store energy in something exceedingly cold is somewhat puzzling to me.

I'd love to hear how this stores the energy



Also it looses the big plus side of electric cars

You can't recharge at home

Edited by thinfourth2 on Thursday 18th October 07:04
It's extremely cold because it's in liquid form - the energy comes from it's dramatic expansion as it vaporises and expands in a cylinder, drivng a piston and so on. The advantage of it being liquid is obviously the energy density - shame that it's at cryogenic temperatures and slowly boiling off! How long could you leave your N2 powered car parked without returning to find it empty?

thinfourth2

32,414 posts

203 months

Friday 19th October 2012
quotequote all
YankeePorker said:
thinfourth2 said:
How you store energy in something exceedingly cold is somewhat puzzling to me.

I'd love to hear how this stores the energy
It's extremely cold because it's in liquid form - the energy comes from it's dramatic expansion as it vaporises and expands in a cylinder, drivng a piston and so on. The advantage of it being liquid is obviously the energy density - shame that it's at cryogenic temperatures and slowly boiling off! How long could you leave your N2 powered car parked without returning to find it empty?
So how much more energy is stored in a litre of liquid nitrogen compared to a litre of room temperature tap water?

Herman Toothrot

6,702 posts

197 months

Friday 19th October 2012
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YankeePorker said:
They don't mention the risks inherent in dealing with cryogenic fluids at -165 degrees
-196oC


Will never happen, I work with LN2 daily the expansion rate is massive so O2 displacement is a problem, our LN2 vat room has permanent extraction fans O2 sensors all over it, it only takes maybe 2 tanks for need to fill at the same time and it drops the O2 level in the very large room to 17% which is where the health and safety crowd has all door getting automatically locked, extraction fans boosted and alarms going off. Also vats for safety and ease of use are not pressurised this is true (they have a 6" deep puddle in thenbottom and samples are stored in vapour phase above this puddle) however storage and supply are pressurised at about 2.2Bar.

Alfanatic

9,339 posts

218 months

Friday 19th October 2012
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YankeePorker said:
They mention it being a cheap by-product of liquid oxygen production. Obviously if you start running lots of cars on it there won't be enough by-product and it'll have to be produced as a primary product.
Hold on, liquid nitrogen is a cheap byproduct of liquid nitrogen production?

xRIEx

8,180 posts

147 months

Friday 19th October 2012
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Alfanatic said:
YankeePorker said:
They mention it being a cheap by-product of liquid oxygen production. Obviously if you start running lots of cars on it there won't be enough by-product and it'll have to be produced as a primary product.
Hold on, liquid nitrogen is a cheap byproduct of liquid nitrogen production?
Did you read every word of that first sentence?

CDP

7,454 posts

253 months

Friday 19th October 2012
quotequote all
Herman Toothrot said:
-196oC


Will never happen, I work with LN2 daily the expansion rate is massive so O2 displacement is a problem, our LN2 vat room has permanent extraction fans O2 sensors all over it, it only takes maybe 2 tanks for need to fill at the same time and it drops the O2 level in the very large room to 17% which is where the health and safety crowd has all door getting automatically locked, extraction fans boosted and alarms going off. Also vats for safety and ease of use are not pressurised this is true (they have a 6" deep puddle in thenbottom and samples are stored in vapour phase above this puddle) however storage and supply are pressurised at about 2.2Bar.
The system described on Radio 4 was for energy storage as part of a smart grid rather than in cars. In an industrial context most of these safety issues are far more easily dealt with but as you suggest in a garage it can be dangerous.

Methanol is also very dangerous in a garage context, how do the Brazilians deal with this?

Alfanatic

9,339 posts

218 months

Friday 19th October 2012
quotequote all
xRIEx said:
Alfanatic said:
YankeePorker said:
They mention it being a cheap by-product of liquid oxygen production. Obviously if you start running lots of cars on it there won't be enough by-product and it'll have to be produced as a primary product.
Hold on, liquid nitrogen is a cheap byproduct of liquid nitrogen production?
Did you read every word of that first sentence?
No, I missed the word "oxygen". getmecoat