RE: 2013 Nissan GT-R: now even more so

[Mr Whippy]

tjlees said:

The argument that a 1740+kg car has better grip based on static weight does not standup.

I remember raising the exact same issue when the videos of the designer were up at the cars pre-launch years back.

What a load of codswallop.

There is logic in sizing the tyre appropriately to the weight to get a nice contact patch pressure.

But the way they sold it was almost like they had to make it heavy to get the pressure up... or they could have just fitted smaller tyres?

It's just weird and my post above sums up some of the comments they come out with. They try make out they are some kind of technical gurus and do fancy maths to make the car do amazing things, but it reads like they are idiots who don't do the job properly to start with, or pick and choose at which laws of motion to agree with


I'm sure they DO know what they are doing, it's just a weird marketing twist but it makes them sound stupid.

Or maybe something really is lost in translation... but I doubt that too. It's all marketing driven bullst.



If they told us the new one will weigh 2 tonnes so it can even faster as it'll have more grip you can bet plenty of people will believe it

Dave

[Cyrus1971]

Some musings : Continues to be an awesome response to all supercars. German and Italian manufacturers (and others) are made to look very expensive. For me though the styling is horrific. I know why they do it in the video game generation and form following function etc, but it just looks too in-elegant and brutish. Ordinary in fact, then adorned with trashy looking extras that may serve a dynamic purpose but fail aesthetically for my tastes. Thinking about it though I also don't like the look of any Ferraris at the moment bar the 458. I would seriously consider a GTR if only I could cope with the looks. Sports cars have to have visual appeal to me to buy one. I know a GTRs looks work for many and fair dues to them but it's just not for me looking like that.

[Mr Whippy]

Yep,the old R33 certainly was prettier in comparison. Still the best looking/sized/proportioned one in my view. Horrible interiors in them all though, relatively speaking (to the German supercar contemporaries)

Dave

[Carl_Docklands]

tjlees said:

Carl_Docklands said:

Question for Pistonheads: given the history here with Nissan's GT-R lap times, questions about tyres, did they run with over-boosted engines, nobody else outside of nissan able to replicate etc.

Did you guys ask Nissan rep for proof of 'ring lap time (youtube vbox, video) ?

And if you did not, are you going to ?

Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgr... ....

Length	Time	Car	Driver	Who
20,600 m (67,600 ft)	7:34	Nissan GT-R (2011)	Horst von Saurma	Sport Auto (11/2010)
20,600 m (67,600 ft)	7:38	Nissan GT-R	Horst von Saurma	Sport Auto (07/2009)

.... is more believable and as a comparison

20,600 m (67,600 ft)	7:38	Ferrari 458 Italia	Horst von Saurma	Sport Auto (08/2010)
20,600 m (67,600 ft)	7:33	Porsche 911 GT3 RS 997MkII	Horst von Saurma	Sport Auto (04/2010)
20,600 m (67,600 ft)	7:24	Porsche 911 GT2 RS	Horst von Saurma	Sport Auto

The latter GT2 RS is a £170k+ car!

...and of course with downforce and less weight but still road legal

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

6:48

Radical SR8 LM

Michael Vergers

Radical Sportscars

... for around £60k. Even cheaper than GTR and British - though some sacrifices for ride, refinement, comfort and practicality

I think the tests conducted by the manufacturers may have fettled machinery or guys with fking big balls

Nissan are claming a 7 min 16 sec lap with the Mk3 GT-R here, not saying it is impossible, just want to see independent proof with factory fresh car.

[CrisW]

Carl_Docklands said:

tjlees said:

Carl_Docklands said:

Question for Pistonheads: given the history here with Nissan's GT-R lap times, questions about tyres, did they run with over-boosted engines, nobody else outside of nissan able to replicate etc.

Did you guys ask Nissan rep for proof of 'ring lap time (youtube vbox, video) ?

And if you did not, are you going to ?

Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgr... ....

Length	Time	Car	Driver	Who
20,600 m (67,600 ft)	7:34	Nissan GT-R (2011)	Horst von Saurma	Sport Auto (11/2010)
20,600 m (67,600 ft)	7:38	Nissan GT-R	Horst von Saurma	Sport Auto (07/2009)

.... is more believable and as a comparison

20,600 m (67,600 ft)	7:38	Ferrari 458 Italia	Horst von Saurma	Sport Auto (08/2010)
20,600 m (67,600 ft)	7:33	Porsche 911 GT3 RS 997MkII	Horst von Saurma	Sport Auto (04/2010)
20,600 m (67,600 ft)	7:24	Porsche 911 GT2 RS	Horst von Saurma	Sport Auto

The latter GT2 RS is a £170k+ car!

...and of course with downforce and less weight but still road legal

20,600 m (67,600 ft)

6:48

Radical SR8 LM

Michael Vergers

Radical Sportscars

... for around £60k. Even cheaper than GTR and British - though some sacrifices for ride, refinement, comfort and practicality

I think the tests conducted by the manufacturers may have fettled machinery or guys with fking big balls

Nissan are claming a 7 min 16 sec lap with the Mk3 GT-R here, not saying it is impossible, just want to see independent proof with factory fresh car.

I've always assumed the manufacturers times are the best possible. They'll have a closed track and have spent an age with a single driver fettling the perfect set-up and style to get the perfect lap.

Likewise I would assume the Horst von Saurma would be relatively quicker in a 911 given the experience he's got with them. With something like the GTR or even the 458 I'd guess a different driving style is required to get the 'perfect lap' and if you'd completed 1,000 laps in either you'd improve your times. Nevertheless the all of those cars are clearly in the same region.

Now if only Nissan would ressurect the 200SX. A RWD 2.0 turbo coupe souds about right for today's market. If they could slot it in below the 370Z it'd make a nice Scirocco alternative. If they could work a diesel version in people might buy it too...

[tjlees]

Carl_Docklands said:

Nissan are claming a 7 min 16 sec lap with the Mk3 GT-R here, not saying it is impossible, just want to see independent proof with factory fresh car.

I wouldn't believe Nissan times, as I wouldn't believe porsches time of 7:18 for the gt2rs. In fact Porsche accused Nissan of cheating and could only get 7:54 for 2009 GTR version on a back to back comparison with 911s.

CrisW said:

....Likewise I would assume the Horst von Saurma would be relatively quicker in a 911 given the experience he's got with them. With something like the GTR or even the 458 I'd guess a different driving style is required to get the 'perfect lap' ...

Horst von Saurma seems to have a lot of ring experience on different cars - not just 911s, so I would expect his times to be fairly consistent for any car, and for him to get close to 100% of the ability of the car - since that what he's being independently paid to do. however the times are only really a guide and do not take into account conditions.

I do like the idea of paying around £60k for a road legal radical SR8 that will murder all of these road cars and has a decent sounding v8

[Carl_Docklands]

tjlees said:

Carl_Docklands said:

Nissan are claming a 7 min 16 sec lap with the Mk3 GT-R here, not saying it is impossible, just want to see independent proof with factory fresh car.

I wouldn't believe Nissan times, as I wouldn't believe porsches time of 7:18 for the gt2rs. In fact Porsche accused Nissan of cheating and could only get 7:54 for 2009 GTR version on a back to back comparison with 911s.

CrisW said:

....Likewise I would assume the Horst von Saurma would be relatively quicker in a 911 given the experience he's got with them. With something like the GTR or even the 458 I'd guess a different driving style is required to get the 'perfect lap' ...

Horst von Saurma seems to have a lot of ring experience on different cars - not just 911s, so I would expect his times to be fairly consistent for any car, and for him to get close to 100% of the ability of the car - since that what he's being independently paid to do. however the times are only really a guide and do not take into account conditions.

No P video for the GT2-RS but at least Sport Auto got close enough with a 7.24. Kluck is one of the fastest ring drivers out there and he is quicker than Saurma so no real reason to question the 7.18 time.

[Dagnut]

Bezza1969 said:

E92 M3 weighed by Autocar at 1625 KG in 2007..........

GT-R could do with being lighter, but when a Focus ST with options comes in at 1500 KG, i'd question whether its really THAT heavy..

..what a car...!

From BMW website http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications...

Unladen (EU) 1655 (1675)


From Porsche Website http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/911/911-turbo-s/f...


Unladen weight (EG) 1.660 kg

[tjlees]

Dagnut said:

From BMW website http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/pricesandspecifications...

Unladen (EU) 1655 (1675)


From Porsche Website http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/911/911-turbo-s/f...


Unladen weight (EG) 1.660 kg

For the BMW and porsche you are quoting the weight including 68kg-75kg driver you need the unladen weight (din) - for the porsche this is 1585kg

As a comparison M3 csl is 1385kg and Porsche 997 gt3 4.0 RS is 1360kg - unladen weight (din)

Curb Weight = Weight of Car with standard accessories, full fluids, no driver
Unladen EU Weight = Weight of Car with 90% fuel, 68 kg driver, 7 kg cargo
Unladen DIN Weight = Weight of Car with 90% fuel, no driver, no cargo

[sjc]

And for those of you who mentioned warranties,about as comprehensive as it gets for 1200 quid all in.
http://www.litchfieldimports.co.uk/warranty.asp

[Dagnut]

tjlees said:

For the BMW and porsche you are quoting the weight including 68kg-75kg driver you need the unladen weight (din) - for the porsche this is 1585kg

As a comparison M3 csl is 1385kg and Porsche 997 gt3 4.0 RS is 1360kg - unladen weight (din)

Curb Weight = Weight of Car with standard accessories, full fluids, no driver
Unladen EU Weight = Weight of Car with 90% fuel, 68 kg driver, 7 kg cargo
Unladen DIN Weight = Weight of Car with 90% fuel, no driver, no cargo

OK so nissan are quoting curb weight.


http://www.nissan.co.uk/etc/medialib/nissaneu/_gb_...

If they are quoting curb weight it makes it over 150kg heavier than the Porsche which is quite significnat

[tjlees]

Dagnut said:

tjlees said:

For the BMW and porsche you are quoting the weight including 68kg-75kg driver you need the unladen weight (din) - for the porsche this is 1585kg

As a comparison M3 csl is 1385kg and Porsche 997 gt3 4.0 RS is 1360kg - unladen weight (din)

Curb Weight = Weight of Car with standard accessories, full fluids, no driver
Unladen EU Weight = Weight of Car with 90% fuel, 68 kg driver, 7 kg cargo
Unladen DIN Weight = Weight of Car with 90% fuel, no driver, no cargo

OK so nissan are quoting curb weight.


http://www.nissan.co.uk/etc/medialib/nissaneu/_gb_...

If they are quoting curb weight it makes it over 150kg heavier than the Porsche which is quite significnat

The only difference between curb weight and din weight is 10% fuel - din weight includes all other fluids.

Weight of 1 litre of petrol = 1.67 pounds (0.76 kg)

Equations for eu/ec Weight Conversion:
Curb Weight (metric) = EU1 Weight - 68kg for driver - 7 kg for cargo + (0.1 X Fuel Capacity X 0.76)
EU Weight (metric) = Curb Weight + 68 kg for driver + 7 kg for cargo - (0.1 X Fuel Capacity X 0.76)
1 KG = 2.2 pounds

Therefore given the capacity of Nissan GTR is 73.8l, the Difference between din and curb weight is 7.38x.76kg = 5.6kg

Or put 9 or so bags of 40k cement into the porsche gt3 RS or M3 csl and you have the same weight as a Nissan GTR

The porsche and bmer would handle badly - just think how much better the GTR would handle with 360kg less

[Jim1556]

stew-S160 said:

Staggering times. I know this has been said a million times before, but just imagine if it was about 500kg lighter...

EFA!

Seriously, I've always liked GTRs, R32 is my fav although now looking a little dated, but the R35 is just too heavy for a sports car!

As is the M3, M5, VXR8.

If Nissan dropped it to 1300-1400kgs it'd be untouchable, instead of 'rather quick'...

All IMO of course!