Are modern cars just too complicated?
Discussion
Prof Prolapse said:
This thread is quickly devolving into the "I fear change therefore technology is bad" isn't it?
What I want is an Austin-Healey Frogeye with modern brakes, ECU, ABS, 150hp fuel-injected petrol engine etc though a 3 cylinder Ford would probably pass muster in one.I lament the death of the fun factor, not the old technology.
chryslerben said:
No because there's naff all particularly complicated about them in reality, if your versed in the technology used.
This.You can still change the oil and the plugs yourself although due to improved mixture control due to high speed ECUs and precise injection plugs rarely need replacing. Most sensors you can still change and not much else goes wrong, maybe the occasional hose perishes.
Although with the amount of piping going on for emissions purposes some things are more physically challenging to do.
A few over-complications that bug me are things like bonnet-shut sensors, ffs if you need a light on the dash to tell you the bonnet is open...
Ok based on some above posts, DPF is one thing I definitely can't abide, same goes for all this ammonia injection that'll be appearing on diesels soon. Just stick to proper fuel and you'll be ok.
As for fun factor, that's partly down to everything being overly assisted but with things like the GT86 it's slowly becoming a factor again, albeit at a premium. Fatter tyres probably don't help the "fun factor" either but then they mean more grip.
Edited by scarble on Thursday 8th November 17:05
LuS1fer said:
Prof Prolapse said:
This thread is quickly devolving into the "I fear change therefore technology is bad" isn't it?
What I want is an Austin-Healey Frogeye with modern brakes, ECU, ABS, 150hp fuel-injected petrol engine etc though a 3 cylinder Ford would probably pass muster in one.I lament the death of the fun factor, not the old technology.
But at the end of the day that's the way it was always going to be. As time goes on the emphasis of social responsibility gets greater and greater. The emissions laws and emphasis on manufacturer safety over rule everything else. We're a minority, increasingly so, and we've no reason to expect to be treated in any other way.
You've got two choices, you either accept that. Or get angry and have to accept it anyway.
In my opinion.
MajorTom said:
Prof Prolapse said:
LuS1fer said:
Prof Prolapse said:
This thread is quickly devolving into the "I fear change therefore technology is bad" isn't it?
What I want is an Austin-Healey Frogeye with modern brakes, ECU, ABS, 150hp fuel-injected petrol engine etc though a 3 cylinder Ford would probably pass muster in one.I lament the death of the fun factor, not the old technology.
But at the end of the day that's the way it was always going to be. As time goes on the emphasis of social responsibility gets greater and greater. The emissions laws and emphasis on manufacturer safety over rule everything else. We're a minority, increasingly so, and we've no reason to expect to be treated in any other way.
You've got two choices, you either accept that. Or get angry and have to accept it anyway.
In my opinion.
god knows what the gubbermint have planned for the future for classic ownership. I bet it wont be good news /tinfoilhat
I think they're too complicated now, certainly, but I wouldn't back some kind of return to the days of points ignition, carb-balancing and rust.
Mechanically, there came a point roughly speaking from about 1988-1998 when cars just seemed to be perfected. Unlike cars of yore they all had electronic fuel injection, electronic ignition and galvanised bodyshells so they started when it was cold and didn't rust. They had power steering if they were deemed too heavy to steer unassisted, and that system would be simple and hydraulic. They might have an ABS system if they were deemed powerful enough to merit it, but again it would be a simple system rather than part of some dizzyingly complex computer. They'd have discs rather than old-fashioned drums, which would stop the car perfectly well.
They'd also have the option of tyres with decent sidewalls so the ride wasn't ruined, and if you didn't want a shedload of complicated electronic options they weren't foisted upon you in smugly-named 'packs' or 'trim levels', you just didn't tick things on the options list and didn't get them if you didn't want them.
I've owned nothing but cars from this era for the past five years, and short of a head gasket letting go, nothing major has gone wrong that I or a friendly local mechanic couldn't fix for next to nothing.
Safety? They have crumple zones, side-impact protection bars and (more often than not) a driver's airbag. That may not be 'as safe' as a modern paranoiamobile, but it's by no means 'dangerous' in the slightest.
I'll continue to buy from this era indefinitely. I had a new exhaust fitted to my MR2 the other day and the guy who fitted it was practically overjoyed that he'd got something so straightforward to work on.
Mechanically, there came a point roughly speaking from about 1988-1998 when cars just seemed to be perfected. Unlike cars of yore they all had electronic fuel injection, electronic ignition and galvanised bodyshells so they started when it was cold and didn't rust. They had power steering if they were deemed too heavy to steer unassisted, and that system would be simple and hydraulic. They might have an ABS system if they were deemed powerful enough to merit it, but again it would be a simple system rather than part of some dizzyingly complex computer. They'd have discs rather than old-fashioned drums, which would stop the car perfectly well.
They'd also have the option of tyres with decent sidewalls so the ride wasn't ruined, and if you didn't want a shedload of complicated electronic options they weren't foisted upon you in smugly-named 'packs' or 'trim levels', you just didn't tick things on the options list and didn't get them if you didn't want them.
I've owned nothing but cars from this era for the past five years, and short of a head gasket letting go, nothing major has gone wrong that I or a friendly local mechanic couldn't fix for next to nothing.
Safety? They have crumple zones, side-impact protection bars and (more often than not) a driver's airbag. That may not be 'as safe' as a modern paranoiamobile, but it's by no means 'dangerous' in the slightest.
I'll continue to buy from this era indefinitely. I had a new exhaust fitted to my MR2 the other day and the guy who fitted it was practically overjoyed that he'd got something so straightforward to work on.
Major Fallout said:
Yes!
But I would say that, I even think my TVR has too much of a brain.
Sometimes I walk past the bmw and it will make a little whirring noise then stop, makes me wonder what its up to. Probably planning my demise or contemplating its own existence?
Just walking past it? Not unlocking it even?But I would say that, I even think my TVR has too much of a brain.
Sometimes I walk past the bmw and it will make a little whirring noise then stop, makes me wonder what its up to. Probably planning my demise or contemplating its own existence?
Is it one of these "smart" key things? Probably the fuel pump, primes under the assumption you'll be getting in and starting.
Non-"smart" key cars do it when you open the door.
Twincam16 said:
I think they're too complicated now, certainly, but I wouldn't back some kind of return to the days of points ignition, carb-balancing and rust.
Mechanically, there came a point roughly speaking from about 1988-1998 when cars just seemed to be perfected. Unlike cars of yore they all had electronic fuel injection, electronic ignition and galvanised bodyshells so they started when it was cold and didn't rust. They had power steering if they were deemed too heavy to steer unassisted, and that system would be simple and hydraulic. They might have an ABS system if they were deemed powerful enough to merit it, but again it would be a simple system rather than part of some dizzyingly complex computer. They'd have discs rather than old-fashioned drums, which would stop the car perfectly well.
They'd also have the option of tyres with decent sidewalls so the ride wasn't ruined, and if you didn't want a shedload of complicated electronic options they weren't foisted upon you in smugly-named 'packs' or 'trim levels', you just didn't tick things on the options list and didn't get them if you didn't want them.
I've owned nothing but cars from this era for the past five years, and short of a head gasket letting go, nothing major has gone wrong that I or a friendly local mechanic couldn't fix for next to nothing.
Safety? They have crumple zones, side-impact protection bars and (more often than not) a driver's airbag. That may not be 'as safe' as a modern paranoiamobile, but it's by no means 'dangerous' in the slightest.
I'll continue to buy from this era indefinitely. I had a new exhaust fitted to my MR2 the other day and the guy who fitted it was practically overjoyed that he'd got something so straightforward to work on.
I'd agree with this. I love cars from the late 80s up to about year 2000. I just think they were great in that they were/are reliable because of some modern systems but still had an 'analogue' feel to the driving experience. Plus lots of them had a much better ride than their modern relatives because it was prior to the obsession with low profile tyres.Mechanically, there came a point roughly speaking from about 1988-1998 when cars just seemed to be perfected. Unlike cars of yore they all had electronic fuel injection, electronic ignition and galvanised bodyshells so they started when it was cold and didn't rust. They had power steering if they were deemed too heavy to steer unassisted, and that system would be simple and hydraulic. They might have an ABS system if they were deemed powerful enough to merit it, but again it would be a simple system rather than part of some dizzyingly complex computer. They'd have discs rather than old-fashioned drums, which would stop the car perfectly well.
They'd also have the option of tyres with decent sidewalls so the ride wasn't ruined, and if you didn't want a shedload of complicated electronic options they weren't foisted upon you in smugly-named 'packs' or 'trim levels', you just didn't tick things on the options list and didn't get them if you didn't want them.
I've owned nothing but cars from this era for the past five years, and short of a head gasket letting go, nothing major has gone wrong that I or a friendly local mechanic couldn't fix for next to nothing.
Safety? They have crumple zones, side-impact protection bars and (more often than not) a driver's airbag. That may not be 'as safe' as a modern paranoiamobile, but it's by no means 'dangerous' in the slightest.
I'll continue to buy from this era indefinitely. I had a new exhaust fitted to my MR2 the other day and the guy who fitted it was practically overjoyed that he'd got something so straightforward to work on.
The throttle response on a lot of modern stuff is a crime, it really is.
hesnotthemessiah said:
I guess so.....
I once drove my friend's 2CV from London to Sheffield.....the pin which holds the gear leaver in the centre of the dash attached to the gear shifter (?) above the engine block fell out and was lost going up a hill just through Highbury.....I nicked the pin out of the rear glass boot hinge and fixed it. Got all the way home to Sheffield no worries.
Not sure I could do that with a modern car but some people like or have need of a modern car....I don't particularly, so I don't drive them.
I'm not sure the gear lever of a modern car is that prone to falling off.I once drove my friend's 2CV from London to Sheffield.....the pin which holds the gear leaver in the centre of the dash attached to the gear shifter (?) above the engine block fell out and was lost going up a hill just through Highbury.....I nicked the pin out of the rear glass boot hinge and fixed it. Got all the way home to Sheffield no worries.
Not sure I could do that with a modern car but some people like or have need of a modern car....I don't particularly, so I don't drive them.
hesnotthemessiah said:
I guess so.....
I once drove my friend's 2CV from London to Sheffield.....the pin which holds the gear leaver in the centre of the dash attached to the gear shifter (?) above the engine block fell out and was lost going up a hill just through Highbury.....I nicked the pin out of the rear glass boot hinge and fixed it. Got all the way home to Sheffield no worries.
Not sure I could do that with a modern car but some people like or have need of a modern car....I don't particularly, so I don't drive them.
A modern car wouldn't break in that way in the first place.I once drove my friend's 2CV from London to Sheffield.....the pin which holds the gear leaver in the centre of the dash attached to the gear shifter (?) above the engine block fell out and was lost going up a hill just through Highbury.....I nicked the pin out of the rear glass boot hinge and fixed it. Got all the way home to Sheffield no worries.
Not sure I could do that with a modern car but some people like or have need of a modern car....I don't particularly, so I don't drive them.
ETA: Sorry to steal your comment Fish, I didn't read down that far first.
LuS1fer said:
What I want is an Austin-Healey Frogeye with modern brakes, ECU, ABS, 150hp fuel-injected petrol engine etc though a 3 cylinder Ford would probably pass muster in one.
I lament the death of the fun factor, not the old technology.
They really are the answer to everything on Pistonheads:I lament the death of the fun factor, not the old technology.
sometimes they are, but transistorised ignition/EFI is to me the example of where 'more' complication pays off. Sure you can alter distributor timing yourself, but alter it so it responds to throttle demand as well? So it varies nonlinearly with engine speed? With fuel quality, the properties of the air, reacting intelligently to feedback from the exhaust? All of which is available with modern systems. So it's not just more reliable and better - it's more tinkerable, to someone with the tools and the knowledge (and a willingness to void the warranty). ABS/ESC are there for good reasons as well, even if they don't carry particularly PH values.
Stuff like electronic handbrakes, tho - complication for the sake of it. Auto lights/wipers too - if you can't see that it's dark and flick a switch, how on earth do you drive competently?
Stuff like electronic handbrakes, tho - complication for the sake of it. Auto lights/wipers too - if you can't see that it's dark and flick a switch, how on earth do you drive competently?
I think there is a balance to strike.
Clearly, we don't want to go back to the days of carbs and points but the complexity of modern car systems is just mind boggling. I've got a mate who works in the trade who has plenty of horror stories. Its not that things break or go wrong but the fact that when they do its usually expensive.
He dealt with a car that had come in because the (factory) phone kit didn't work.
It was determined that the phone control unit had gone faulty. Easy.
Except the part had been superseded.
To get the new part working it needs a firmware update, which is loaded by putting a cd in the cd changer and following a procedure.
Doesn't work, because the cd changer is too old, it needs to be updated.
So that gets replaced too.
Only now, that doesn't work with the media control unit. So thats box number 3.
Which doesn't work with the controller for the dash display, so the driver cannot see the radio/heat/ventilation settings.. Box number 4.
£2k later everything works, crazy given the car was a fairly cheap auction purchase.
Its not just convenience features either.
A reasonably popular model had a firmware upgrade to a control module - standard stuff, happens at every service.
Until several cars ended up back on the forecourt, offloaded by breakdown trucks. Turns out the firmware update had a fault that meant the electronic handbrake wouldn't release, at all. Much fun was had trying to get the cars in to the workshop.
Cars that have fibre optic networks for CANBUS are nothing new.. they need the fibre to keep the bandwidth up, because there is so much data flying around. Brake control units will know when wipers are on, wipers know what gear is selected, battery management controller knows when the windows are open.. it just goes on and on.
I can't help but think the 90s were the best time - we had the benefits of things like injection, ABS etc without the over complexity.
It all works out nicely for manufacturers. An 8 year old car with complex systems that develops a fault is not economical to repair. Home mechanics (or even your back street guy) can unplug a controller and plug in a new (or even used) one, but they don't have the manufacturer specific kit to be able to re-program the controller, so they can't fix the fault.
Half of me thinks a mk2 escort with a YB in it would be the way to go - at least you can fix it with a socket set and a few spanners whilst not having to tube carbs/reset points etc.
Clearly, we don't want to go back to the days of carbs and points but the complexity of modern car systems is just mind boggling. I've got a mate who works in the trade who has plenty of horror stories. Its not that things break or go wrong but the fact that when they do its usually expensive.
He dealt with a car that had come in because the (factory) phone kit didn't work.
It was determined that the phone control unit had gone faulty. Easy.
Except the part had been superseded.
To get the new part working it needs a firmware update, which is loaded by putting a cd in the cd changer and following a procedure.
Doesn't work, because the cd changer is too old, it needs to be updated.
So that gets replaced too.
Only now, that doesn't work with the media control unit. So thats box number 3.
Which doesn't work with the controller for the dash display, so the driver cannot see the radio/heat/ventilation settings.. Box number 4.
£2k later everything works, crazy given the car was a fairly cheap auction purchase.
Its not just convenience features either.
A reasonably popular model had a firmware upgrade to a control module - standard stuff, happens at every service.
Until several cars ended up back on the forecourt, offloaded by breakdown trucks. Turns out the firmware update had a fault that meant the electronic handbrake wouldn't release, at all. Much fun was had trying to get the cars in to the workshop.
Cars that have fibre optic networks for CANBUS are nothing new.. they need the fibre to keep the bandwidth up, because there is so much data flying around. Brake control units will know when wipers are on, wipers know what gear is selected, battery management controller knows when the windows are open.. it just goes on and on.
I can't help but think the 90s were the best time - we had the benefits of things like injection, ABS etc without the over complexity.
It all works out nicely for manufacturers. An 8 year old car with complex systems that develops a fault is not economical to repair. Home mechanics (or even your back street guy) can unplug a controller and plug in a new (or even used) one, but they don't have the manufacturer specific kit to be able to re-program the controller, so they can't fix the fault.
Half of me thinks a mk2 escort with a YB in it would be the way to go - at least you can fix it with a socket set and a few spanners whilst not having to tube carbs/reset points etc.
Edited by Crafty_ on Thursday 8th November 21:11
ChrisBuer said:
I remember my father-in-law, who is a mechanics lecturer at a college, saying to me that it's now all about "laptops and cables" rather than "manual tools".
I'm sorry, I have to disagree strongly. Having recently completed level 3 C&G in motor vehicle service and repair, my lecturer always said 'diagnostic software/computers are just another tool' Only use they have is to simplify diagnosis and faultfinding procedures. We were told never to jus plug in the computer and go 'oh the computer says an ignition coil is broken...so I just have to replace the ignition coil' Of course there is the likes of Tech 2 etc for activating/deactivating various systems on the car (such as adding cruise control etc)Crafty_ said:
I think there is a balance to strike.
Clearly, we don't want to go back to the days of carbs and points
Yes they were terrible, cost all of £2.50 to fix if anything went wrong. Problem is that the average motorist doesn't know a. how anything works, b. couldn't care less and c. expects his/her car to run perfectly with zero help.Clearly, we don't want to go back to the days of carbs and points
At least with older cars you could weed out the fools
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