Nearside and offside: Why?
Discussion
kambites said:
doogz said:
... with port being positive, stbd being negative...
Yuck, that feels completely the wrong way around to me. Negative numbers should go on the left (no idea why, it just feels like they should). 
+
People inventing scenarios to poke holes in a system that they don't like is a bit boring.
If you speak to anybody in the motor trade, or anybody with a brain, in this country and refer to nearside or offside, then they know automatically where you mean.
If you're phoning your goldfish's aunt in Uzbekhistan, who drives a USDM car converted to RHD in a LHD country but upside down and facing the wrong way, then you've got more to worry about than which side is nearside or offside.
When speaking to my mechanic mate and telling him that my offside rear brake caliper is sticking and can he get me a new one and I'll pop round Saturday to get it sorted, there is no confusion.
There's always going to be different ways of doing things in other countries, who cares? In this country it works.
If you speak to anybody in the motor trade, or anybody with a brain, in this country and refer to nearside or offside, then they know automatically where you mean.
If you're phoning your goldfish's aunt in Uzbekhistan, who drives a USDM car converted to RHD in a LHD country but upside down and facing the wrong way, then you've got more to worry about than which side is nearside or offside.
When speaking to my mechanic mate and telling him that my offside rear brake caliper is sticking and can he get me a new one and I'll pop round Saturday to get it sorted, there is no confusion.
There's always going to be different ways of doing things in other countries, who cares? In this country it works.
Face for Radio said:
If you speak to anybody in the motor trade, or anybody with a brain, in this country and refer to nearside or offside, then they know automatically where you mean.
Yes, but if you refer to left or right then do too if they have two brain cells to bang together and so does everyone who isn't in the motor trade. And I don't know about you, but I regularly talk to people who live in countries which drive on the other side of the road about cars. On here, for example.
I'm not even convinced a mechanic would always know what you meant anyway. If you brought a LHD car in to a UK garage and said my nearside brake calliper is sticking, which would you mean? If you said "left" they'd know immediately.
I'm all for technical jargon where it increases accuracy or makes things easier to explain, but NS/OS does neither IMO.
Edited by kambites on Friday 18th January 10:55
Face for Radio said:
People inventing scenarios to poke holes in a system that they don't like is a bit boring.
If you speak to anybody in the motor trade, or anybody with a brain, in this country and refer to nearside or offside, then they know automatically where you mean.
The point is the automotive industry uses right and left. If the people who design, engineer and manufacture cars use a standard I'm a little confused as to why people would use a horse riding term instead.If you speak to anybody in the motor trade, or anybody with a brain, in this country and refer to nearside or offside, then they know automatically where you mean.
It didn't bother me until I did some work for a Teir 1 supplier in 1995, which was when I found out that OEMs don't use horsey terms, they use a system that always works instead.
It sounds like they don't even use the horsey term properly, since for a horse rider it would differ between left- and right-handed people, rather than depending on which side of the road the horse is ridden on. 
The best you can say for the terminology is that in some situations it's no worse than than more established terms.
The best you can say for the terminology is that in some situations it's no worse than than more established terms.
Captain Muppet said:
Zero for vehicles is is mid-point of the front axle at ground level.
Zero for engines is crank centreline on the rear face of block.
Zero for motorbikes is through the crankline regardless IIRC.Zero for engines is crank centreline on the rear face of block.
And whoever opened the XYZ orientation arguement - I will hunt you down and kill you.
Frik said:
Captain Muppet said:
Zero for vehicles is is mid-point of the front axle at ground level.
Zero for engines is crank centreline on the rear face of block.
Zero for motorbikes is through the crankline regardless IIRC.Zero for engines is crank centreline on the rear face of block.
And whoever opened the XYZ orientation arguement - I will hunt you down and kill you.
doogz said:
busta said:
Nearside and offside are simply names for a cars left and right side. We always see left and right from the same perspective, so giving a separate name to the cars left and right sides allows us to easily differentiate what we are saying from our own perspective. It's also easier than saying 'the cars left hand side' or 'to the left as you are sat in the drivers seat'.
When stood at the front of a car, peering into the engine bay diagnosing a cracked linear-rotating static oscillator, using left and right is confusing but nearside and offside always makes sense.
Compare identifying the left-most spark plug of a transverse engine to identifying the nearside spark plug. The first leads to some confusion and mental images of the whole car spinning is free space, the latter is very straight forward.
If it's a straight engine, I'd call them by number. if it's a V, it's no less 'confusing'.When stood at the front of a car, peering into the engine bay diagnosing a cracked linear-rotating static oscillator, using left and right is confusing but nearside and offside always makes sense.
Compare identifying the left-most spark plug of a transverse engine to identifying the nearside spark plug. The first leads to some confusion and mental images of the whole car spinning is free space, the latter is very straight forward.
kambites said:
It sounds like they don't even use the horsey term properly, since for a horse rider it would differ between left- and right-handed people, rather than depending on which side of the road the horse is ridden on.
The best you can say for the terminology is that in some situations it's no worse than than more established terms.
It would depend on how the horse had been trained, not on the rider. Mounting from the offside will result in damage.The best you can say for the terminology is that in some situations it's no worse than than more established terms.
Captain Muppet said:
Face for Radio said:
People inventing scenarios to poke holes in a system that they don't like is a bit boring.
If you speak to anybody in the motor trade, or anybody with a brain, in this country and refer to nearside or offside, then they know automatically where you mean.
The point is the automotive industry uses right and left. If the people who design, engineer and manufacture cars use a standard I'm a little confused as to why people would use a horse riding term instead.If you speak to anybody in the motor trade, or anybody with a brain, in this country and refer to nearside or offside, then they know automatically where you mean.
busta said:
But which end is number 1? That requires the same or more knowledge than knowing offside and nearside.
Number 1 cylinder (or rotor for wankels) is the one at the "front" of the engine, ie the one furthest from the block to gearbox face. So pretty easy* to spot just by looking at the engine and also not dependant on seeing the car the engine goes in, or even knowing which way round the engine is mounted, unlike naming a headlight correctly as either "nearside" or "offside"** without it being fitted to the car (or indeed knowing which country it'll be in most of the time once fitted).Main bearings, cam caps and the like are also numbered starting at the front and working back.
However with V engines it gets tricky, because some manufacturers start at 1 for the furthest forward cylinder, then "2" is the next furthest back, so on the other bank, Some manufacturers call "2" the next cylinder on that bank.
Typically the banks will be "left" for the one that's on the left if viewed from behind, and "right" for the one that's on the right. People who can't get this sort of thing the correct way round will also not be able to tell which side another person keeps their right arm.
Engines without two seperate banks may use "left" and "right" or "inlet" and "exhaust" depending on layout. Again, these are pretty obvious.
And there are random exceptions, obviously. Like the ford V8 that starts with cylinder 5.
Not really a problem unless you are trying to order just a number 2 HT lead, rather than a set. And also not the sort of thing untrained people ever have to cope with - I've never had a MOT failure sheet with a cylinder number on it, but I have had several with "nearside" and "farside"*** on them.
* Easy given that the only people who need to tell which end is the front are also people who have already identified a need to do something on one specific cylinder, and therefore must have a degree of automotive knowledge.
** Weird that the opposite of "nearside" isn't "farside", and the opposite off "offside" isn't "onside".
*** Sorry, I mean "starboard"
Mr2Mike said:
Captain Muppet said:
Number 1 cylinder (or rotor for wankels) is the one at the "front" of the engine, ie the one furthest from the block to gearbox face.
Usually, but not always! Renault in particular like to do things differently.Captain Muppet said:
Mr2Mike said:
Captain Muppet said:
Number 1 cylinder (or rotor for wankels) is the one at the "front" of the engine, ie the one furthest from the block to gearbox face.
Usually, but not always! Renault in particular like to do things differently.Not only do you mount a horse from the left and walk on the left (to prevent ones weapon getting stuck in the undergrowth when drawn) but it also defines our clothing. Men's clothes button left of right allowing one to withdraw ones weapon, women's clothing buttons right over left so that when they are mounted side saddle with their feet towards the pavement they don't suffer from draughts.
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