'You bend it, you mend it' - Piper sues Hales
Discussion
Issue is not that the engine over revved. It's whether or not it was caused by Hales' incompetence.
If you can't prove he was being incompetent then he's innocent. Word of mouth is not enough for a £50,000 bill (+ £50,000 legal fees probably!).
Don't let people drive your car you can't trust would be my argument to avoid this. If I test drive an ancient car and the engine lets go I don't want to be taken to court with some clown lawyer using this case as precedent.
I'd imagine someone independent forensic mechanics would help settle this.
If you can't prove he was being incompetent then he's innocent. Word of mouth is not enough for a £50,000 bill (+ £50,000 legal fees probably!).
Don't let people drive your car you can't trust would be my argument to avoid this. If I test drive an ancient car and the engine lets go I don't want to be taken to court with some clown lawyer using this case as precedent.
I'd imagine someone independent forensic mechanics would help settle this.
TA14 said:
I would doubt that. Either you invite someone to race your car and enjoy the benefits and liabilities or don't invite them.
You make a reasonable point, but as you were posting that I editted my original post to include this addendum specifically about mechanical failure:HustleRussell said:
ETA: It's always a little more complicated around mechanical failure though, because the argument will always exist- was the part 'due' a failure, was the car ill-prepared? Or was the failure caused by careless driving? As Ozzy Osmond said, you'd hope that in this instance they could reach a compromise, based on when the engine was last rebuilt- at the end of the day, it's a highly tuned competition engine and it has a finite life between rebuilds, there is a risk every time it is run.
My main point is that bend it mend it is usually for lending people road cars; I think that things are quite different on the track.
Back to the OP's case, the critical thing may be 'what was the £2,000 for? Hire of car? Refundable deposit? Contribution towards repair? Who knows - hopefully Hales and Piper. It looks like Piper thought that a favourable magazine review would boost the value of his car that he intanded to sell in the near future, a very common event these days. He chose Hales as a racing driver turned writer and the dice fell badly. Tough.
Back to the OP's case, the critical thing may be 'what was the £2,000 for? Hire of car? Refundable deposit? Contribution towards repair? Who knows - hopefully Hales and Piper. It looks like Piper thought that a favourable magazine review would boost the value of his car that he intanded to sell in the near future, a very common event these days. He chose Hales as a racing driver turned writer and the dice fell badly. Tough.
Interesting case, but with a simple solution. The gearbox will have been unaffected by the engine failure, so inspect it. If it's found that it's at all liable to jump out of gear, Piper has to pay the costs because the failure could have happened at any time, even with him driving it, and if it slipped to neutral under full-bore acceleration nobody is fast enough to stop a huge overspeed, especially with a snappy race engine like that.
If the gearbox appears fine and no fault can be replicated, then Hales was at fault.. I'm not yet sure whether that means he should pay for it, though. I mean, the car needs regular rebuilds anyway and this failure would mean a "free" one for Piper.
If the gearbox appears fine and no fault can be replicated, then Hales was at fault.. I'm not yet sure whether that means he should pay for it, though. I mean, the car needs regular rebuilds anyway and this failure would mean a "free" one for Piper.
J4CKO said:
50 grands worth of engine damage, what did it do to it !
Imagine the mess that a big end letting go makes, or even a dropped valve could cause considerable damage to a cylinder head. I suspect spare parts are both very difficult to source and outrageously expensive when you do.J4CKO said:
50 grands worth of engine damage, what did it do to it !
I suppose bills mount very quickly on a flat 12 and people who know them wont be cheap, would be interesting to see the aftermath.
Stuff on historic race cars is frighteningly expensive, the parts are usually either in very short supply or you have to have them fabricated. We once paid £1300 for a distributor cap for a historic race 911, they simply weren't available cheaper. If the engine has actually shat itself then a bill of that magnitude is not surprising.I suppose bills mount very quickly on a flat 12 and people who know them wont be cheap, would be interesting to see the aftermath.
I think Mr piper has a case. It seems Mr Hales was acting in a professional capacity, in that he was going to drive a car, write about it and sell the article or he had been commissioned by a magazine to drive a car and write an article about it for them.
Therefore presumably it is up to Mr Hales to cover himself for any liabilities which may happen whilst carrying out his profession, or bear the risk himself.
I think the possibility of a mechanical problem with the gearbox is not really relevant unless it can be proved to the satisfaction of all concerned including the court.
Mr Hales has allowed a professional to drive his car for monetary gain but obviously expects his car back in one piece.
Therefore presumably it is up to Mr Hales to cover himself for any liabilities which may happen whilst carrying out his profession, or bear the risk himself.
I think the possibility of a mechanical problem with the gearbox is not really relevant unless it can be proved to the satisfaction of all concerned including the court.
Mr Hales has allowed a professional to drive his car for monetary gain but obviously expects his car back in one piece.
Mr2Mike said:
Imagine the mess that a big end letting go makes, or even a dropped valve could cause considerable damage to a cylinder head. I suspect spare parts are both very difficult to source and outrageously expensive when you do.
Suspect if repair costs are ~£50k the crankcase isn't damaged. I dread to think what a new crankcase for a 917 flat 12 would cost, either purchase price or (more likely) made from scratch.GC8 said:
The owner at the time says that there wasnt a gearbox problem, but I suspect that when an experienced racer presses on that its put under far more pressure than it usually sees.
Piper is more experienced than probably any other racing driver on the planet. He doesn't mess about.Dron covered in this exact situation in one of his articles for Octane last yr, the agreements and aspects of liabilities between "guest" drivers and owners. With the increase in historic racing and the very large increase in values of historic cars, it has become a very hot topic. I suspect we will see more of this in the future and most cases of written protected contracts.
J4CKO said:
50 grands worth of engine damage, what did it do to it !
I suppose bills mount very quickly on a flat 12 and people who know them wont be cheap, would be interesting to see the aftermath.
The £50k includes the cost of shipping to Germany, the repair and 'loss of use'. I suppose bills mount very quickly on a flat 12 and people who know them wont be cheap, would be interesting to see the aftermath.
The latter could make up any amount of the £50k.
It suggest around £10k as they mention a £40k repair bill later.
£40k is chicken feed when you're looking at a £1.25m ex-race Porsche. The later group C car owners will spend that every time they prepare and race one of their cars.
Anyway, who broke it and why it broke shouldn't even be a consideration for the owners, either they tuck it away under a dust cover, or get it race-prepared, get it on the track, get it seen at international Classic race events, shown in magazines and see the value rise, but run the risk of an occasional failure.
It sounds like there is more to this petty fall-out than meets the eye?
Anyway, who broke it and why it broke shouldn't even be a consideration for the owners, either they tuck it away under a dust cover, or get it race-prepared, get it on the track, get it seen at international Classic race events, shown in magazines and see the value rise, but run the risk of an occasional failure.
It sounds like there is more to this petty fall-out than meets the eye?
Edited by The Surveyor on Friday 18th January 13:48
Was at a track day recently. There was a porsche GT3 that got bent by a friend of the owner due to a talent defficiency. I spoke to the owner afterwards.
"You must be gutted" I said "I bet he's in trouble!"
"Not really," he replied "if you put your car on the track then you have to expect this sort of thing to happen."
Same applies here. The sums of money are irrelevant, as is the action of the driver - unless he deliberately set out to damage the engine.
"You must be gutted" I said "I bet he's in trouble!"
"Not really," he replied "if you put your car on the track then you have to expect this sort of thing to happen."
Same applies here. The sums of money are irrelevant, as is the action of the driver - unless he deliberately set out to damage the engine.
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