'You bend it, you mend it' - Piper sues Hales
Discussion
As someone who has prepared cars for guest drivers and writers It is my belief that in most situations, the guest driver is allowed into the car with plenty of advance knowledge of that individual's history of behaviour. In different situations i have road tested a hot tempered, very hairy little car with the editor of Evo magazine, having little prior knowledge of him, so i drove first to demonstrate a few of the cars characteristics. As it turned out he drove well and with caution and respect. I have prepared a car for Tony Dron to drive at Goodwood, unluckily for us the car's engine let go, and not for a second did i consider that Tony might be in any way negligent, the man is an expert, who has a cautious manner, and is extremely respectful of the car and its owner. There are drivers/ journalists out there, and e know who they are, who most people would be extremely uneasy about releasing into a race situation in a valuable or fragile historic car. I have met Mark Hales several times over the years, and had some interesting discussions with him, and watched him drive from the pit wall many times. The man is an absolute gentleman, a very sound expert driver with an excellent reputation for bringing cars home intact. Racing cars are prone to sudden catastrophic failure- thats just how it is.
james_gt3rs said:
The story doesn't add up. If it 'fell out of gear', then the only reason it would over-rev is that if the rev limiter was set too low. Else, the driver would have changed down too early and forced the revs too high.
Rubbish! If it jumped out of gear under acceleration then no one could have backed off quickly enough to prevent an iver-rev.
Flatinfourth said:
As someone who has prepared cars for guest drivers and writers It is my belief that in most situations, the guest driver is allowed into the car with plenty of advance knowledge of that individual's history of behaviour. In different situations i have road tested a hot tempered, very hairy little car with the editor of Evo magazine, having little prior knowledge of him, so i drove first to demonstrate a few of the cars characteristics. As it turned out he drove well and with caution and respect. I have prepared a car for Tony Dron to drive at Goodwood, unluckily for us the car's engine let go, and not for a second did i consider that Tony might be in any way negligent, the man is an expert, who has a cautious manner, and is extremely respectful of the car and its owner. There are drivers/ journalists out there, and e know who they are, who most people would be extremely uneasy about releasing into a race situation in a valuable or fragile historic car. I have met Mark Hales several times over the years, and had some interesting discussions with him, and watched him drive from the pit wall many times. The man is an absolute gentleman, a very sound expert driver with an excellent reputation for bringing cars home intact. Racing cars are prone to sudden catastrophic failure- thats just how it is.
Nice post, cheers.Thats the issue. Ordinarily an over-rev may not cause any immediate damage, but thats not to say it doesnt manifest itself at a later date. Whats to say Mr Hales was on the recieving end of someone elses ham fisted driving?
I would guess that it was a miss-shift causing the over-rev and not a missed gear. Most valuable race engines are equipped with soft/hard cut that kills ignition or fuel. Problem occurs when someone snicks the wrong gear - especially easy on old racing H gate boxes, where 1st is selected instead of 3rd. I have seen q few V8V's - one threw a rod and the other broke props - when a drivers missed a downshift.
Problem is proving if the result was down to negligence or an old worn gear lever.
I would guess that it was a miss-shift causing the over-rev and not a missed gear. Most valuable race engines are equipped with soft/hard cut that kills ignition or fuel. Problem occurs when someone snicks the wrong gear - especially easy on old racing H gate boxes, where 1st is selected instead of 3rd. I have seen q few V8V's - one threw a rod and the other broke props - when a drivers missed a downshift.
Problem is proving if the result was down to negligence or an old worn gear lever.
Flatinfourth said:
As someone who has prepared cars for guest drivers and writers It is my belief that in most situations, the guest driver is allowed into the car with plenty of advance knowledge of that individual's history of behaviour. In different situations i have road tested a hot tempered, very hairy little car with the editor of Evo magazine, having little prior knowledge of him, so i drove first to demonstrate a few of the cars characteristics. As it turned out he drove well and with caution and respect. I have prepared a car for Tony Dron to drive at Goodwood, unluckily for us the car's engine let go, and not for a second did i consider that Tony might be in any way negligent, the man is an expert, who has a cautious manner, and is extremely respectful of the car and its owner. There are drivers/ journalists out there, and e know who they are, who most people would be extremely uneasy about releasing into a race situation in a valuable or fragile historic car. I have met Mark Hales several times over the years, and had some interesting discussions with him, and watched him drive from the pit wall many times. The man is an absolute gentleman, a very sound expert driver with an excellent reputation for bringing cars home intact. Racing cars are prone to sudden catastrophic failure- thats just how it is.
Good post and I agree with it all. The point as I see it though is that Mr Hales was acting in his professional capacity and thus is liable for anything that happens to the car while it's in his charge.
GC8 said:
james_gt3rs said:
The story doesn't add up. If it 'fell out of gear', then the only reason it would over-rev is that if the rev limiter was set too low. Else, the driver would have changed down too early and forced the revs too high.
Rubbish! If it jumped out of gear under acceleration then no one could have backed off quickly enough to prevent an iver-rev.Interesting case. I successfully defended a comparable civil case last year.I thought that the result would be determined on the judge's view of the expert engineers' evidence but in the end it rested on the credibility of the parties.
It's very likely that the lawyers' fees exceed the value of the claim.
It's very likely that the lawyers' fees exceed the value of the claim.
Ozzie Osmond said:
TA14 said:
I would doubt that. Either you invite someone to race your car and enjoy the benefits and liabilities or don't invite them.
If you borrowed a mate's old car to nip down the shops and the engine failed while you were out, would you be happy to pay up for a new one?TA14 said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
TA14 said:
I would doubt that. Either you invite someone to race your car and enjoy the benefits and liabilities or don't invite them.
If you borrowed a mate's old car to nip down the shops and the engine failed while you were out, would you be happy to pay up for a new one?heebeegeetee said:
Flatinfourth said:
As someone who has prepared cars for guest drivers and writers It is my belief that in most situations, the guest driver is allowed into the car with plenty of advance knowledge of that individual's history of behaviour. In different situations i have road tested a hot tempered, very hairy little car with the editor of Evo magazine, having little prior knowledge of him, so i drove first to demonstrate a few of the cars characteristics. As it turned out he drove well and with caution and respect. I have prepared a car for Tony Dron to drive at Goodwood, unluckily for us the car's engine let go, and not for a second did i consider that Tony might be in any way negligent, the man is an expert, who has a cautious manner, and is extremely respectful of the car and its owner. There are drivers/ journalists out there, and e know who they are, who most people would be extremely uneasy about releasing into a race situation in a valuable or fragile historic car. I have met Mark Hales several times over the years, and had some interesting discussions with him, and watched him drive from the pit wall many times. The man is an absolute gentleman, a very sound expert driver with an excellent reputation for bringing cars home intact. Racing cars are prone to sudden catastrophic failure- thats just how it is.
Good post and I agree with it all. The point as I see it though is that Mr Hales was acting in his professional capacity and thus is liable for anything that happens to the car while it's in his charge.
Ozzie Osmond said:
TA14 said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
TA14 said:
I would doubt that. Either you invite someone to race your car and enjoy the benefits and liabilities or don't invite them.
If you borrowed a mate's old car to nip down the shops and the engine failed while you were out, would you be happy to pay up for a new one?Graham said:
Thats why I insist on in car video and datalogging on any car I borrow / lend out.
not a nice situation for either party. I dont know DP but i have met MH a few times and I'd be happy to have him in a car
A bit off topic, but after my engine grenading at Oulton I could see from the logs it was on a cooling down lap and constant low revs and good pressurs temps. There's a rev limter so I shouldn't have been over revved and I had no recall of previous fluffed changes earlier in the day. I was also sure that I'd never over revved it on down changes so the thing remains unexplained (although the rood cause was a broken valve spring I'm sure). So anyone else poodling about in the car instead of me would have had the same blow-up.not a nice situation for either party. I dont know DP but i have met MH a few times and I'd be happy to have him in a car
But - and here's the point at last - what struck me when I was checking the logs is that my data logger takes its RPM off the HT king lead, and with the rev limiter it will cut the spark off if over-revved and on a 'soft cut' would still let sparks through at the maximum allowed revs. So in the event of an over-rev due to too low a gear downchange the logger will still show revs at the maximum allowed by the limiter rather than the true RPM. Something to watch if your logger is wired that way and you expect it to show over-revs...it won't.
If this ends up in court then surely there'll be a knock on effect in the number of guest drivers agreeing to appear.... after all if you're asked to drive someone else's expensive car at Goodwood FoS are you really going to risk it knowing you might get sued if something goes wrong.
Bad sportsmanship on behalf of the owner if you ask me.
Bad sportsmanship on behalf of the owner if you ask me.
Ozzie Osmond said:
This wasn't a race meeting, it was a "please can I borrow your car". So it's identical.
Except that it was in a professional capacity. It's not a case of a friend borrowing a friends car, it's a journalist borrowing a car (undoubtedly from a friend as it happens) so that he (journalist) can ply his trade. I'm sure Mr Piper would not loan his car to just anybody, and Mr Hales is as qualified as possibly anybody in the world to be doing what he was doing.
I feel thought that Mr Hales was using the car in a professional or commercial application and thus is responsible for the car until he hands it back.
I also think that while Mr Piper must be careful who he allows to drive his cars, so must Mr Hales be equally careful about whose car's he uses. Both people in this case are highly responsible and respectable people in the world of historic motor racing of course.
Something unfortunate has happened but I do feel that Mr Piper is entitled to his car back in one piece because this (I presume, as an article was to be sold) is a commercial transaction.
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