RE: Driven (briefly): BMW M3 CRT
Discussion
I love BMW doing these kinds of models, it just validates what we and others do to the standard cars for less money. 
I'm not saying they are direct compares (OEM to aftermarket will always be different markets) but when BMW start adding better exhausts, remapping ECU's, stiffer springs etc it just conforms that what we do is a perfectly valid way of improving the standard cars.
I'm not saying they are direct compares (OEM to aftermarket will always be different markets) but when BMW start adding better exhausts, remapping ECU's, stiffer springs etc it just conforms that what we do is a perfectly valid way of improving the standard cars.Thorney said:
I love BMW doing these kinds of models, it just validates what we and others do to the standard cars for less money. I'm not saying they are direct compares (OEM to aftermarket will always be different markets) but when BMW start adding better exhausts, remapping ECU's, stiffer springs etc it just conforms that what we do is a perfectly valid way of improving the standard cars.
Fair point but a limited edition factory special on the whole will always be worth more I'm not saying they are direct compares (OEM to aftermarket will always be different markets) but when BMW start adding better exhausts, remapping ECU's, stiffer springs etc it just conforms that what we do is a perfectly valid way of improving the standard cars.Standard cars can always be improved. I remember u did a talk once at a BMWCCGB Gaydon festival. Like ECU chips supposedly have a more generic engine map put in to take into account poor fuel or poor maintenance etc and not always being run in optimal conditions. Are BMWs and other manufacturers are the engine map is a car delivered to UK/USA/Middle East/Scandanavia the same ?
Dblue said:
Cheib said:
Mermaid said:
Cheib said:
Makes you realise just how cheap the CSL was......even though it seemed totally the wrong price at the time.
Amazing bit of kit, and it was offered at a smidge under £60k. But they did make 1400 or so. If they had made 200, the price would have been £100k I suppose.A well bought CSL will be very cheap motoring in the long term I think.
But its all irrelevant as the CRT all sold out instantly and none came here!
And , yes, you're quite right ,the CSL is a fantastic depreciation free bargain.
The E90 M3 is a proper Q car though. I think they built the CRT as someone mentioned on here to testbed new technology such as light weight materials and look at ways of improving the costs of these materials for future M and Series cars .... not sure if this is correct ? Dont think BMW really needs the money. Quite surprised there was never a E92 M3 CSL .... though the GTS is kind of its successor ....
161BMW said:
Standard cars can always be improved. I remember u did a talk once at a BMWCCGB Gaydon festival. Like ECU chips supposedly have a more generic engine map put in to take into account poor fuel or poor maintenance etc and not always being run in optimal conditions. Are BMWs and other manufacturers are the engine map is a car delivered to UK/USA/Middle East/Scandanavia the same ?
Yes all manufacturer released cars have this margin built in but also there are regional differences depending (amongst other things) the fuel quality available. For example, the US cars have different maps due to different fuel quality out there (even more so for California where some manufacturers even have a differnt map for Cali cars). Try getting decent 100 octane fuel in places like rural China or West Africa, whereas in Germany 100 octane is practically the norm (I'm over emphasising but you get my point). Manufacturers make World cars, but there is still a regional market place so for the most part the manufacturers have to build in excessive margin to recognise that, we just use some of that margin.
Interesting discussion going on here. There's no doubt it's a phenomenal car in almost all respects, including the price, but with such limited numbers it'll only appeal to the well-heeled collector/investor. I doubt we'll see any being ragged on a track day. Its a great looking car (with the exception of the hideous interior colours), and though it would look better in 2 door form, as a 4 door it will blend into a car park pretty well and not attract the attention of chaos and twoccers.
WCZ said:
sc4589 said:
Clearly not as they're all sold. They know their market, they're not stupid.
where's the roof though, could they have sold 60+ cars at £200k ? it'd be interesting to have a time machine and keep upping the price!
I admit there will be a few of those 67 people that bought it because they are enthusiasts, love it and want to drive it and they may not have bought it if it was £200k plus but if they hadn't someone else would have, just because they wanted the limited edition.
I would be willing to bet that BMW could have charged almost any figure and 67 people somewhere in the world would have bought them.
Don't get me wrong, I really like this CRT M3 (apart from the fact its DCT only, same mistake as the CSL) and I am sure it is every bit as good as everyone says it is.
BUT
Nothing winds me up more than car companies taking the P*** on price. Whichever way you cut it (M power fan boy or not) there is no way the CRT costs BMW £50k more than the standard car to produce and there is nothing done to it that justifies that premium to any sane person. RIDICULOUS!
TomTVR500 said:
I agree, it is less BMW knowing their market and more, there is an ever increasing proportion of stupidly wealthy idiots that are willing to pay almost anything to drive a limited edition, show off's version of the standard car just for bragging rights.
I admit there will be a few of those 67 people that bought it because they are enthusiasts, love it and want to drive it and they may not have bought it if it was £200k plus but if they hadn't someone else would have, just because they wanted the limited edition.
I would be willing to bet that BMW could have charged almost any figure and 67 people somewhere in the world would have bought them.
Don't get me wrong, I really like this CRT M3 (apart from the fact its DCT only, same mistake as the CSL) and I am sure it is every bit as good as everyone says it is.
BUT
Nothing winds me up more than car companies taking the P*** on price. Whichever way you cut it (M power fan boy or not) there is no way the CRT costs BMW £50k more than the standard car to produce and there is nothing done to it that justifies that premium to any sane person. RIDICULOUS!
Now we know... Glad you explained that. BMW have no idea what they are doing I admit there will be a few of those 67 people that bought it because they are enthusiasts, love it and want to drive it and they may not have bought it if it was £200k plus but if they hadn't someone else would have, just because they wanted the limited edition.
I would be willing to bet that BMW could have charged almost any figure and 67 people somewhere in the world would have bought them.
Don't get me wrong, I really like this CRT M3 (apart from the fact its DCT only, same mistake as the CSL) and I am sure it is every bit as good as everyone says it is.
BUT
Nothing winds me up more than car companies taking the P*** on price. Whichever way you cut it (M power fan boy or not) there is no way the CRT costs BMW £50k more than the standard car to produce and there is nothing done to it that justifies that premium to any sane person. RIDICULOUS!
. How about breaking it down, explaining how much the development costs, bespoke bits, engine come together to produce and what it SHOULD cost.And of course it doesn't cost 50k more to produce... There will be PROFIT in there too!
HighwayStar said:
Now we know... Glad you explained that. BMW have no idea what they are doing . How about breaking it down, explaining how much the development costs, bespoke bits, engine come together to produce and what it SHOULD cost.
And of course it doesn't cost 50k more to produce... There will be PROFIT in there too!
No BMW know EXACTLY what they are doing, that’s what winds me up. But I suppose if 67 people are stupid enough to fall for it....... How about breaking it down, explaining how much the development costs, bespoke bits, engine come together to produce and what it SHOULD cost.And of course it doesn't cost 50k more to produce... There will be PROFIT in there too!
Yes of course there will be profit built in..... about 40k I suspect.
You could get another TT for that!
The fact that Thorney Motorsport can give you 440-460 Bhp for about £3,300, make it handle like this if not better for another £2,000 and Recaro will sell you a pair of Leather Pole Positions for another £2,200 totalling about £7,500 shows just what a silly price this CRT is.
AND
I can have my tuned M3 with a proper gearbox so I can actually enjoy driving it properly.
TomTVR500 said:
HighwayStar said:
Now we know... Glad you explained that. BMW have no idea what they are doing . How about breaking it down, explaining how much the development costs, bespoke bits, engine come together to produce and what it SHOULD cost.
And of course it doesn't cost 50k more to produce... There will be PROFIT in there too!
No BMW know EXACTLY what they are doing, that’s what winds me up. But I suppose if 67 people are stupid enough to fall for it....... How about breaking it down, explaining how much the development costs, bespoke bits, engine come together to produce and what it SHOULD cost.And of course it doesn't cost 50k more to produce... There will be PROFIT in there too!
Yes of course there will be profit built in..... about 40k I suspect.
You could get another TT for that!
The fact that Thorney Motorsport can give you 440-460 Bhp for about £3,300, make it handle like this if not better for another £2,000 and Recaro will sell you a pair of Leather Pole Positions for another £2,200 totalling about £7,500 shows just what a silly price this CRT is.
AND
I can have my tuned M3 with a proper gearbox so I can actually enjoy driving it properly.
And as the full retail price for the entire run in total comes to a little over £7m I suspect that if you truly want to allocate costs to the costs of the composite development, tooling and prototyping they are very much a loss leader.
Edited by Dblue on Monday 28th January 11:01
Edited by Dblue on Monday 28th January 16:51
TomTVR500 said:
No BMW know EXACTLY what they are doing, that’s what winds me up. But I suppose if 67 people are stupid enough to fall for it......
Yes of course there will be profit built in..... about 40k I suspect.
You could get another TT for that!
The fact that Thorney Motorsport can give you 440-460 Bhp for about £3,300, make it handle like this if not better for another £2,000 and Recaro will sell you a pair of Leather Pole Positions for another £2,200 totalling about £7,500 shows just what a silly price this CRT is.
AND
I can have my tuned M3 with a proper gearbox so I can actually enjoy driving it properly.
Oh right, I see, that's exactly what BMW has done for +£50k.Yes of course there will be profit built in..... about 40k I suspect.
You could get another TT for that!
The fact that Thorney Motorsport can give you 440-460 Bhp for about £3,300, make it handle like this if not better for another £2,000 and Recaro will sell you a pair of Leather Pole Positions for another £2,200 totalling about £7,500 shows just what a silly price this CRT is.
AND
I can have my tuned M3 with a proper gearbox so I can actually enjoy driving it properly.
And only £10k of actual parts and labour. Makes ya sick doesn't it. Man it really winds you up! Why I don't really. It costs a lot of money, other people have it to spend. Be it value for money or not I really could give a sh!t whether someone has wasted there money or not, it's theirs to spend as they please.
The CRT would be brand new, fully developed and fully warrantied.
Yours would just be a moded M3. Is a Ferrari really worth the actual price the charge? Is anything.
I never get why people get so wound up about stuff like this. If think something is overpriced I don't buy it, I don't need to go on forums b!tching about it...
More food for thought as to why it costs so much:
The CFRP honeycomb technology is unique, not sure Recaro are using that yet. With the CRT you have effectively FOUR carbon bucket seats.
It has a built 4.4 stroker motor made with motorsport parts and fully warrantied. Ask yourself how much that would cost?
Plow 10k of parts into a regular M3 and ask "will I get 10k back?"
If a CRT came up for sale tomorrow, would some collector swoop on it for the same as its original RRP?
There's a guy here at the 'Ring who has one, and he drives it a lot and he takes it into terroristenfahrten without a second-thought. So they're not all bought by vacuum-bag car hoarders...
The CFRP honeycomb technology is unique, not sure Recaro are using that yet. With the CRT you have effectively FOUR carbon bucket seats.
It has a built 4.4 stroker motor made with motorsport parts and fully warrantied. Ask yourself how much that would cost?
Plow 10k of parts into a regular M3 and ask "will I get 10k back?"
If a CRT came up for sale tomorrow, would some collector swoop on it for the same as its original RRP?
There's a guy here at the 'Ring who has one, and he drives it a lot and he takes it into terroristenfahrten without a second-thought. So they're not all bought by vacuum-bag car hoarders...
HighwayStar said:
Oh right, I see, that's exactly what BMW has done for +£50k.
And only £10k of actual parts and labour. Makes ya sick doesn't it. Man it really winds you up! Why I don't really. It costs a lot of money, other people have it to spend. Be it value for money or not I really could give a sh!t whether someone has wasted there money or not, it's theirs to spend as they please.
The CRT would be brand new, fully developed and fully warrantied.
Yours would just be a moded M3. Is a Ferrari really worth the actual price the charge? Is anything.
I never get why people get so wound up about stuff like this. If think something is overpriced I don't buy it, I don't need to go on forums b!tching about it...
It appears you have lost the ability to type a coherent message so I think we should agree to disagree on this. And only £10k of actual parts and labour. Makes ya sick doesn't it. Man it really winds you up! Why I don't really. It costs a lot of money, other people have it to spend. Be it value for money or not I really could give a sh!t whether someone has wasted there money or not, it's theirs to spend as they please.
The CRT would be brand new, fully developed and fully warrantied.
Yours would just be a moded M3. Is a Ferrari really worth the actual price the charge? Is anything.
I never get why people get so wound up about stuff like this. If think something is overpriced I don't buy it, I don't need to go on forums b!tching about it...
However in reply to one of you little points in there, I think there are very few cars out there that justify the price they are asking these days.
To my mind car prices have spiralled out of control in the last decade with thousands being added on to the list price with each model revision to the point where even the new Fiesta ST will be a frankly ridiculous £17k list (nearly 5k more than the previous ST) Compared to just a few years ago when a Clio 200 could be yours for just £14,600 for a Cup.
I remember the Discovery 3 was about £26k list when it came out and the Discovery 4 is now more like £42k for a "poverty" spec one.
The Ferrari F430 was about £135k new, a lot of money but probably worth it, the 458... £200k!!! And that’s before you even think about putting it on the road most were more like £240k
£100,000 in one model revision???? Madness!!
I could literally go on all day giving examples of how I think car prices in the last few years have just gone mad. I am not singling the M3 CRT out really there are hundreds of cars that are the same.
BMW produce possibly the biggest relative performance bargain of 2013 the M135i (manual obviously)
The reason it winds me up is not because I want to tell people what to spend their money on it is because as someone who loves cars, I can see them getting further and further away to the point where I can't ever see myself behind the wheel of one.
I think car prices need to come back down to earth a bit, if they carry on at this rate we will be paying £100,000 for a hot hatch by 2020!!
Edited by TomTVR500 on Monday 28th January 11:35
TomTVR500 said:
It appears you have lost the ability to type a coherent message so I think we should agree to disagree on this.
However in reply to one of you little points in there, I think there are very few cars out there that justify the price they are asking these days.
To my mind car prices have spiralled out of control in the last decade with thousands being added on to the list price with each model revision to the point where even the new Fiesta ST will be a frankly ridiculous £17k list (nearly 5k more than the previous ST) Compared to just a few years ago when a Clio 200 could be yours for just £14,600 for a Cup.
I remember the Discovery 3 was about £26k list when it came out and the Discovery 4 is now more like £42k for a "poverty" spec one.
The Ferrari F430 was about £135k new, a lot of money but probably worth it, the 458... £200k!!! And that’s before you even think about putting it on the road most were more like £240k
£100,000 in one model revision???? Madness!!
I could literally go on all day giving examples of how I think car prices in the last few years have just gone mad. I am not singling the M3 CRT out really there are hundreds of cars that are the same.
BMW produce possibly the biggest relative performance bargain of 2013 the M135i (manual obviously)
The reason it winds me up is not because I want to tell people what to spend their money on it is because as someone who loves cars, I can see them getting further and further away to the point where I can't ever see myself behind the wheel of one.
I think car prices need to come back down to earth a bit, if they carry on at this rate we will be paying £100,000 for a hot hatch by 2020!!
Oh c'mon man... I'm just having a lil fun with you. I have no ideal what I costs to develop a car, how much is pure profit etc but.... Ford are pretty efficient at making cars, have had the biggest market share in the UK like forever... They sell plenty in Europe and still Ford Europe can't make any money. Yes there's over capacity and Ford have had the axe out but companies are going to give the products away. We demand more and more, development costs get higher.However in reply to one of you little points in there, I think there are very few cars out there that justify the price they are asking these days.
To my mind car prices have spiralled out of control in the last decade with thousands being added on to the list price with each model revision to the point where even the new Fiesta ST will be a frankly ridiculous £17k list (nearly 5k more than the previous ST) Compared to just a few years ago when a Clio 200 could be yours for just £14,600 for a Cup.
I remember the Discovery 3 was about £26k list when it came out and the Discovery 4 is now more like £42k for a "poverty" spec one.
The Ferrari F430 was about £135k new, a lot of money but probably worth it, the 458... £200k!!! And that’s before you even think about putting it on the road most were more like £240k
£100,000 in one model revision???? Madness!!
I could literally go on all day giving examples of how I think car prices in the last few years have just gone mad. I am not singling the M3 CRT out really there are hundreds of cars that are the same.
BMW produce possibly the biggest relative performance bargain of 2013 the M135i (manual obviously)
The reason it winds me up is not because I want to tell people what to spend their money on it is because as someone who loves cars, I can see them getting further and further away to the point where I can't ever see myself behind the wheel of one.
I think car prices need to come back down to earth a bit, if they carry on at this rate we will be paying £100,000 for a hot hatch by 2020!!
Edited by TomTVR500 on Monday 28th January 11:35
We can all look at it simplistically but it's just isn't that way.
TomTVR500 said:
It appears you have lost the ability to type a coherent message so I think we should agree to disagree on this.
However in reply to one of you little points in there, I think there are very few cars out there that justify the price they are asking these days.
To my mind car prices have spiralled out of control in the last decade with thousands being added on to the list price with each model revision to the point where even the new Fiesta ST will be a frankly ridiculous £17k list (nearly 5k more than the previous ST) Compared to just a few years ago when a Clio 200 could be yours for just £14,600 for a Cup.
I remember the Discovery 3 was about £26k list when it came out and the Discovery 4 is now more like £42k for a "poverty" spec one.
The Ferrari F430 was about £135k new, a lot of money but probably worth it, the 458... £200k!!! And that’s before you even think about putting it on the road most were more like £240k
£100,000 in one model revision???? Madness!!
I could literally go on all day giving examples of how I think car prices in the last few years have just gone mad. I am not singling the M3 CRT out really there are hundreds of cars that are the same.
BMW produce possibly the biggest relative performance bargain of 2013 the M135i (manual obviously)
The reason it winds me up is not because I want to tell people what to spend their money on it is because as someone who loves cars, I can see them getting further and further away to the point where I can't ever see myself behind the wheel of one.
I think car prices need to come back down to earth a bit, if they carry on at this rate we will be paying £100,000 for a hot hatch by 2020!!
I do get what you mean Tom, you have a point but your not helping your case by exaggerating quite so much. A 430 listed at £135k a 458 "lists" at £172k. However in reply to one of you little points in there, I think there are very few cars out there that justify the price they are asking these days.
To my mind car prices have spiralled out of control in the last decade with thousands being added on to the list price with each model revision to the point where even the new Fiesta ST will be a frankly ridiculous £17k list (nearly 5k more than the previous ST) Compared to just a few years ago when a Clio 200 could be yours for just £14,600 for a Cup.
I remember the Discovery 3 was about £26k list when it came out and the Discovery 4 is now more like £42k for a "poverty" spec one.
The Ferrari F430 was about £135k new, a lot of money but probably worth it, the 458... £200k!!! And that’s before you even think about putting it on the road most were more like £240k
£100,000 in one model revision???? Madness!!
I could literally go on all day giving examples of how I think car prices in the last few years have just gone mad. I am not singling the M3 CRT out really there are hundreds of cars that are the same.
BMW produce possibly the biggest relative performance bargain of 2013 the M135i (manual obviously)
The reason it winds me up is not because I want to tell people what to spend their money on it is because as someone who loves cars, I can see them getting further and further away to the point where I can't ever see myself behind the wheel of one.
I think car prices need to come back down to earth a bit, if they carry on at this rate we will be paying £100,000 for a hot hatch by 2020!!
Edited by TomTVR500 on Monday 28th January 11:35
The Discovery3 was launched when? nearly a decade ago I think. There is inflation. Though i have no idea whether your figures are a true comparison because I have no interest in the car but manufacturers are increasingly adept at adding value (sic) by including a whole raft of extra kit, paint and trim options and "personalisation"
Something that can probably be attributed to BMW in the first place, going back decades, and demonstrated in the modern context by the new MINI.
This car (CRT )specifically is very limited edition one off and can't really be held up in the same way as a rip off.
The fact is that it's driven by supply and demand as most markets are. If there is demand at the higher prices the manufacturer is going to pitch prices at the best they can get. The purpose of these private corporations is to make a profit not to give it away altruistically. Best to not dwell too much on it or you'll give yourself an ulcer
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