RE: Ferrari 599 GTB: PH Fleet
Discussion
bertie said:
There's your oxymoron, right there!
Judging by your present and previous fleet I suspect you'd love a C6 Z06. I think the engine is the best I've experienced in any car (including 599GTB, 997 GT3 etc) and in combination with a manual and handling that can tend towards 'a little oversteer' it is so much fun. Unfortunately a tree hit mine pretty badly.vinceh said:
I'm with the previous poster who questioned whether anyone other than Chris Harris could have gotten into this car and back out of it for such a (relatively) small loss. The dealer knew exactly who the car belonged to, and how public the costs post mortem was going to be. Not in the dealer or Ferrari UK's interests for Chris to get the regular, bend over and grab your ankles treatment.
+1Best monthly quote I got from (various) finance companies was £580.
Us mere mortals better not kid ourselves
You just beat me to it. Good shout
It's quite obvious what he's going to buy next....
Something with visual appeal, blistering pace and racing heritage that we all hanker after. Something that adds a sense of theatre to the driving occasion. Something that every petrol head - Xbox playing, GTR driving fanboys, 911 apologists, Ferrarri driving 70's throwbacks and NSX nerds - will give him the thumbs up for.
He'll buy a C-type and shut you all up.
Something with visual appeal, blistering pace and racing heritage that we all hanker after. Something that adds a sense of theatre to the driving occasion. Something that every petrol head - Xbox playing, GTR driving fanboys, 911 apologists, Ferrarri driving 70's throwbacks and NSX nerds - will give him the thumbs up for.
He'll buy a C-type and shut you all up.
Don1 said:
WolfyJones said:
Don1 said:
Robbie K said:
sagarich said:
Next car?:
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
I like chris's stuff and the videos are great, but this article didn't make sense to me as a 'man maths gone wrong' piece. It says the opposite. Based on these figures, the 599 is a stonking used car buy!
I don't want to be flippant about losing £10k, as it's a lot of money, but for any of us who have owned and run 'mass-produced' cars of value above £40/£50k, then fairly chunky financial loss is completely expected - and I can't believe someone with his experience, didn't know exactly what he was getting into as he bought the car. He only had to look at the 575 and 550 as a direct comparison. At some point these 599's will be at their value level and maybe even below this, given 575 was one of the last v12’s you could buy as a manual etc. He did well (in terms of lack of loss) on his 575, because he bought one of these rare manuals from memory - good idea that one
In my experience, any car above £40/£50k has about £6-7k between retail and trade in price - a hit that you take the moment you hand over your cash to buy it. What a friend of mine refers to as the ‘bid-offer’ hit. In my opinion, this cannot be viewed as depreciation. True depreciation is experienced after this, so in this 599 ownership experience, virtually £0. True depreciation is probably about £500-1000 per month on most cars of significant value which is probably this £40/50K figure - Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, Merc etc. etc. , unless you are spending north of £100k on a mass-produced car, when it will be significantly more. Plus any prep required by the garage who buys it as you trade it in. The fact he probably paid mid £90k's for this 599, means he had an absolute result.
I remember him losing about £10k on his old 997 mk1 GT3 over roughly the same period of time. This was another good buy, because in true depreciation terms, this was only about £4k. Pretty good when you consider he bought that from a main dealer as apposed to a specialist or private sale.
I suspect if he ran it for 2 years rather than 1, the cost per month would have gone down significantly, even incorporating service charges. But, if you like trying out different car ownership experiences (and I get that), then it's a fact you have to live with
Because Chris had nothing mechanically go wrong with the 599 or servicing work and because he only did 3000 miles in it, this felt like an article by someone who was struggling to say anything other than it was a fast, fabulous car that was semi-practical (for a ferrari). He was probably scratching his head when someone at PH suggested he write one…..
I don't want to be flippant about losing £10k, as it's a lot of money, but for any of us who have owned and run 'mass-produced' cars of value above £40/£50k, then fairly chunky financial loss is completely expected - and I can't believe someone with his experience, didn't know exactly what he was getting into as he bought the car. He only had to look at the 575 and 550 as a direct comparison. At some point these 599's will be at their value level and maybe even below this, given 575 was one of the last v12’s you could buy as a manual etc. He did well (in terms of lack of loss) on his 575, because he bought one of these rare manuals from memory - good idea that one
In my experience, any car above £40/£50k has about £6-7k between retail and trade in price - a hit that you take the moment you hand over your cash to buy it. What a friend of mine refers to as the ‘bid-offer’ hit. In my opinion, this cannot be viewed as depreciation. True depreciation is experienced after this, so in this 599 ownership experience, virtually £0. True depreciation is probably about £500-1000 per month on most cars of significant value which is probably this £40/50K figure - Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, Merc etc. etc. , unless you are spending north of £100k on a mass-produced car, when it will be significantly more. Plus any prep required by the garage who buys it as you trade it in. The fact he probably paid mid £90k's for this 599, means he had an absolute result.
I remember him losing about £10k on his old 997 mk1 GT3 over roughly the same period of time. This was another good buy, because in true depreciation terms, this was only about £4k. Pretty good when you consider he bought that from a main dealer as apposed to a specialist or private sale.
I suspect if he ran it for 2 years rather than 1, the cost per month would have gone down significantly, even incorporating service charges. But, if you like trying out different car ownership experiences (and I get that), then it's a fact you have to live with
Because Chris had nothing mechanically go wrong with the 599 or servicing work and because he only did 3000 miles in it, this felt like an article by someone who was struggling to say anything other than it was a fast, fabulous car that was semi-practical (for a ferrari). He was probably scratching his head when someone at PH suggested he write one…..
His year 2 costs would have been about £10k in cash terms. circa £4.5m for the service and powertrain warranty and circa £3.6k for finance (£300/mo) plus some tyres etc.
The variable would have been his exit price but that is, entirely a function of market forces (but by that, I mean all market forces including movements in exchange rates). e.g. the economy could still go down and Sterling with it upon which it becomes cheaper for a Hong Kong individual to rustle up in excess of £90k and import it...
At the end of the day, Chris took a leveraged financial risk buying the car, taking advantage of relatively cheap money. He got out of it without being burned so kudos to him, but I really had doubts with his original thesis that 599's were 'cheap' at around £90k. They will as you say continue to fall - even faster now that he has questioned the longer term appeal of these old school F1 boxes...
How much to convert to Manual? It is, afterall a robotised manual isn't it? (perhaps I am mistaken). I would imagine that it would be worth investing £10k to acheive a good conversion for the longer term...
The variable would have been his exit price but that is, entirely a function of market forces (but by that, I mean all market forces including movements in exchange rates). e.g. the economy could still go down and Sterling with it upon which it becomes cheaper for a Hong Kong individual to rustle up in excess of £90k and import it...
At the end of the day, Chris took a leveraged financial risk buying the car, taking advantage of relatively cheap money. He got out of it without being burned so kudos to him, but I really had doubts with his original thesis that 599's were 'cheap' at around £90k. They will as you say continue to fall - even faster now that he has questioned the longer term appeal of these old school F1 boxes...
How much to convert to Manual? It is, afterall a robotised manual isn't it? (perhaps I am mistaken). I would imagine that it would be worth investing £10k to acheive a good conversion for the longer term...
BT52 said:
How many of the GTR detractors have actually driven one, and I mean driven one PROPERLY?
I suspect none of them. It's just an update of the old anti Evo/Impreza comments - "it's all just the computers innit?"Going back to the article, 10 grand is much less than I anticipated. Buying from, then selling back to, a dealer would get the average person much more of a pasting than that.
It could have been a lot worse financially. It seems that some models are really oversupplied. Some dealers seem awash with exotic metal with simply not enough buyers around.
Right now you can get £20-30,000 off a new M6. Ferrari 458 values are all over the place and dealers are full of the things. And Porsche 991's - well wander into your local OPC and be treated like a rock star if they think you'll buy one. Granturismo's seem oversupplied as well - every dealer has quite a selection and discounts are everywhere.
Over at Aston, the new Vanquish is gorgeous but a fair few are starting to trickle through the network with less than 500 miles, begging for someone to bid them. McLaren MP4's have taken a hit too ( but may stabilise ).
It's a minefield out there if you are worried about depreciation.
Gallardo's seem quite robust. I like the way the early ones are holding up really well now. Good be a worthwhile punt if you don't pay too much.
Having said this, history tells me that I am rubbish at this game. I usually lose a fortune.
Right now you can get £20-30,000 off a new M6. Ferrari 458 values are all over the place and dealers are full of the things. And Porsche 991's - well wander into your local OPC and be treated like a rock star if they think you'll buy one. Granturismo's seem oversupplied as well - every dealer has quite a selection and discounts are everywhere.
Over at Aston, the new Vanquish is gorgeous but a fair few are starting to trickle through the network with less than 500 miles, begging for someone to bid them. McLaren MP4's have taken a hit too ( but may stabilise ).
It's a minefield out there if you are worried about depreciation.
Gallardo's seem quite robust. I like the way the early ones are holding up really well now. Good be a worthwhile punt if you don't pay too much.
Having said this, history tells me that I am rubbish at this game. I usually lose a fortune.
Having seen the Morgan / Caterham video seems to me the key for Chris may be lightness..
plus a closeness to the elements to maximise driving sensations / pleasure... so has to be open top
however as he gets to drive all sorts of exotic stuff, maybe a hint of every day practicality ?
not much to choose from if it's that the logic to be followed...
assuming Hethel survives, the soft top version of the Exige V6 ? but that's a bit heavy and 340hp from a supercharged 3.5L V6 is pathetic...
(and it's almost as heavy as a new Boxster S...)
much cheaper and lighter would be a 2010 Elise SC which with a few suspension/brake/exhaust/software upgrades is a great compromise ..
(or dare a honda engined elise ?? .. 2.2L normally aspirated 270hp from Maidstone .... would be something )
the Caterham arriving with 240hp at 8500revs is obviously tempting but do you want your elbow to be responsable for the side impact protection ... ?
plus a closeness to the elements to maximise driving sensations / pleasure... so has to be open top
however as he gets to drive all sorts of exotic stuff, maybe a hint of every day practicality ?
not much to choose from if it's that the logic to be followed...
assuming Hethel survives, the soft top version of the Exige V6 ? but that's a bit heavy and 340hp from a supercharged 3.5L V6 is pathetic...
(and it's almost as heavy as a new Boxster S...)
much cheaper and lighter would be a 2010 Elise SC which with a few suspension/brake/exhaust/software upgrades is a great compromise ..
(or dare a honda engined elise ?? .. 2.2L normally aspirated 270hp from Maidstone .... would be something )
the Caterham arriving with 240hp at 8500revs is obviously tempting but do you want your elbow to be responsable for the side impact protection ... ?
Simond S said:
I am amazed that you bought a car from a dealer and sold it to a dealer and only suffered £6k loss.
In fact, I would like to call the custard test here. I would like to see a Ferrari bought and sold back to a dealer after ten months with this little depreciation on the paperwork.
It makes them just about the most economical sports car out there, either superb marketing from Ferrari or you truly are the worlds best car buyer.
I totally agree. There is NO way that a dealer could make money like that. In fact, I would like to call the custard test here. I would like to see a Ferrari bought and sold back to a dealer after ten months with this little depreciation on the paperwork.
It makes them just about the most economical sports car out there, either superb marketing from Ferrari or you truly are the worlds best car buyer.
That 6,000 must cover:
- loss in value of the car over that time
- costs of financing the car whilst it is in stock. (7% pa of 90,000), which is likely to be a couple of months
- A 20% VAT on the margin
- Sales person's commission
- Valet and other pre-sales costs
Indeed, lets see the paperwork. I would expect that a dealer would make a 20% margin on a vehicle, which would make the purchase/sales cost equal to 18,000 PLUS the depreciation over the year.
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