RE: Ferrari F12: Review

[Amirhussain]

toppstuff said:

Matt UK said:

Dagnut said:

This is pistonheads? 3 pages of comments, half of them negative.."what is it for" really??? wtf is this site for?

I think it is primarily for getting feedback on spelling and grammar.

But a numbed, easy to drive rocketship is not my idea of what is desirable.

Not every Ferrari owner/potential owner has the driving talents of Fernando Alonso.

[Dagnut]

PunterCam said:

. I have to ask myself what would be better? A Ferrari Daytona with a manual 'box or a dual clutch? An F40 with a manual or an automatic? Obviously there's no comparison.

Would they have had dsg gearboxes if they had been available at the time? People seem to think they choose manuals out of some customer requirement for more involvement?
What is this presumption based on? It's romantic nonsense as far as I am concerned..Ferrari have always been about ultimate performance within the remit of the package, the F40 would 100% have had a twin clutch gearbox in the day.
I'm not in the corner of the auto boxes and electronic driver aids but Ferrari's only concern is the customer . Ask any daytona owners from the day and the main gripe was in fact the gearbox! near impossible to use fully until it was up to temperature.
Then leap forward to a 740hp 1600kg car and how many people could realistically manage this car without an auto and traction control? You'd have the silly balancing act of trying to get it cleanly out of your drive let alone hustle it down the road.

[toppstuff]

Amirhussain said:

toppstuff said:

Matt UK said:

Dagnut said:

This is pistonheads? 3 pages of comments, half of them negative.."what is it for" really??? wtf is this site for?

I think it is primarily for getting feedback on spelling and grammar.

But a numbed, easy to drive rocketship is not my idea of what is desirable.

Not every Ferrari owner/potential owner has the driving talents of Fernando Alonso.

They don't need to be Alonso.

But if a Ferrari is as easy to drive as a Yaris, then it loses something IMO. Don't get me wrong, I totally accept that this is the way things are now, but it does not alter the fact that as an ownership proposition, as a car that someone owns for the sheer pleasure of driving it, then a humble 550 Maranello is a more attractive car than the F12 most of the time. And you would not have to drive it at a mental speed in order to enjoy it.

But the world has changed. New millionaires in Asia don't have the same values I do. Ferrari is moving with the market. Thats fine, I'll stick to the older ones.

[E38Ross]

To anyone moaning that modern ferraris aren't raw enough, how many of you are in the market for one? Just out of question....

[Amirhussain]

E38Ross said:

To anyone moaning that modern ferraris aren't raw enough, how many of you are in the market for one? Just out of question....

Very few I would suspect, but then again everyone on PH knows better than one of the biggest names in the business....

[007 VXR]

And how many have driven one for them selfs,
Not just readed someone else's reviews ?

[PunterCam]

Dagnut said:

Would they have had dsg gearboxes if they had been available at the time? People seem to think they choose manuals out of some customer requirement for more involvement?
What is this presumption based on? It's romantic nonsense as far as I am concerned..Ferrari have always been about ultimate performance within the remit of the package, the F40 would 100% have had a twin clutch gearbox in the day.
I'm not in the corner of the auto boxes and electronic driver aids but Ferrari's only concern is the customer . Ask any daytona owners from the day and the main gripe was in fact the gearbox! near impossible to use fully until it was up to temperature.
Then leap forward to a 740hp 1600kg car and how many people could realistically manage this car without an auto and traction control? You'd have the silly balancing act of trying to get it cleanly out of your drive let alone hustle it down the road.

Dance around it all you want - would you rather have an F40 with a manual or a DSG? Would you rather have this F12 with an open gate manual or a DSG?

And those Daytona owners - I bet you not one of them would trade that gearbox experience for the world. It's a "gripe" that makes owning and driving a car more than just "driving". These "flaws" are what make so many of the great cars legends. Perfection is boring.

And as for 740bhp and 1600kgs - how do you control that without a DSG? I'd be questioning a power figure long before I questioned the suitability of a manual gearbox. Buy accepting the trend of "more power for the next model" we're killing the enthusiast car. The reason a DSG box and traction/stability systems are needed is because the car is already so far ahead of 99% of drivers' abilities. The manufacturers will continue to up the power, and drivers will become more and more distanced from the machines. It's not really progress. These are toys - why make a competition out of it? And for the record, I think the F12 would have managed just fine with a manual box - huge power band, linear power delivery, long wheel base - it's the perfect platform for a big power/manual gearbox car. It would have been easy to drive, and so much more special.

But how can you drive through London in it right? Sadly the defining point of all supercars now.

[av185]

toppstuff said:

They don't need to be Alonso.

But if a Ferrari is as easy to drive as a Yaris, then it loses something IMO. Don't get me wrong, I totally accept that this is the way things are now, but it does not alter the fact that as an ownership proposition, as a car that someone owns for the sheer pleasure of driving it, then a humble 550 Maranello is a more attractive car than the F12 most of the time. And you would not have to drive it at a mental speed in order to enjoy it.

But the world has changed. New millionaires in Asia don't have the same values I do. Ferrari is moving with the market. Thats fine, I'll stick to the older ones.

Interesting points here. Under VW, Porsche has increased the "bandwidth" with the new 991 GT3 and most of the old school GT3 owners and die hards are up in arms at the standard PDK box and no manual option. I would never have considered a 997 GT3 as it was too hardcore but the 991 is almost two cars in one being a proper everyday usable road car for the track. Increased production yes but the sheer brilliance of the car chomping at the 458 for £70k less has forced me to order one. Progress has some benefits!

[Amirhussain]

PunterCam said:

Dagnut said:

Would they have had dsg gearboxes if they had been available at the time? People seem to think they choose manuals out of some customer requirement for more involvement?
What is this presumption based on? It's romantic nonsense as far as I am concerned..Ferrari have always been about ultimate performance within the remit of the package, the F40 would 100% have had a twin clutch gearbox in the day.
I'm not in the corner of the auto boxes and electronic driver aids but Ferrari's only concern is the customer . Ask any daytona owners from the day and the main gripe was in fact the gearbox! near impossible to use fully until it was up to temperature.
Then leap forward to a 740hp 1600kg car and how many people could realistically manage this car without an auto and traction control? You'd have the silly balancing act of trying to get it cleanly out of your drive let alone hustle it down the road.

Dance around it all you want - would you rather have an F40 with a manual or a DSG? Would you rather have this F12 with an open gate manual or a DSG?

And those Daytona owners - I bet you not one of them would trade that gearbox experience for the world. It's a "gripe" that makes owning and driving a car more than just "driving". These "flaws" are what make so many of the great cars legends. Perfection is boring.

And as for 740bhp and 1600kgs - how do you control that without a DSG? I'd be questioning a power figure long before I questioned the suitability of a manual gearbox. Buy accepting the trend of "more power for the next model" we're killing the enthusiast car. The reason a DSG box and traction/stability systems are needed is because the car is already so far ahead of 99% of drivers' abilities. The manufacturers will continue to up the power, and drivers will become more and more distanced from the machines. It's not really progress. These are toys - why make a competition out of it? And for the record, I think the F12 would have managed just fine with a manual box - huge power band, linear power delivery, long wheel base - it's the perfect platform for a big power/manual gearbox car. It would have been easy to drive, and so much more special.

But how can you drive through London in it right? Sadly the defining point of all supercars now.

Take off the rose tinted spectacles

[007 VXR]

IMHO. Manual boxes would still be offered IF more customers wanted them, but they dont in the real world

[toppstuff]

Amirhussain said:

Very few I would suspect, but then again everyone on PH knows better than one of the biggest names in the business....

What a strange position to take.

So we have to like what Ferrari give to us because they know better than us?

The fact that the values of "older tech" Ferrari are skyrocketing may tell us something. When the F12 has dropped in value by 50%, the value of 365's, 550's, 512's and the like would have probably doubled. Now the classic market is a specialised place for sure, but it does tell us that there is a significant minority of people ( and yes, I accept it IS a minority ) who value cars which offer driving feel and character over simplicity, ease and outright speed. I just think it is a shame that Ferrari are'nt making cars like that anymore.

[E38Ross]

Amirhussain said:

PunterCam said:

Dagnut said:

Would they have had dsg gearboxes if they had been available at the time? People seem to think they choose manuals out of some customer requirement for more involvement?
What is this presumption based on? It's romantic nonsense as far as I am concerned..Ferrari have always been about ultimate performance within the remit of the package, the F40 would 100% have had a twin clutch gearbox in the day.
I'm not in the corner of the auto boxes and electronic driver aids but Ferrari's only concern is the customer . Ask any daytona owners from the day and the main gripe was in fact the gearbox! near impossible to use fully until it was up to temperature.
Then leap forward to a 740hp 1600kg car and how many people could realistically manage this car without an auto and traction control? You'd have the silly balancing act of trying to get it cleanly out of your drive let alone hustle it down the road.

Dance around it all you want - would you rather have an F40 with a manual or a DSG? Would you rather have this F12 with an open gate manual or a DSG?

And those Daytona owners - I bet you not one of them would trade that gearbox experience for the world. It's a "gripe" that makes owning and driving a car more than just "driving". These "flaws" are what make so many of the great cars legends. Perfection is boring.

And as for 740bhp and 1600kgs - how do you control that without a DSG? I'd be questioning a power figure long before I questioned the suitability of a manual gearbox. Buy accepting the trend of "more power for the next model" we're killing the enthusiast car. The reason a DSG box and traction/stability systems are needed is because the car is already so far ahead of 99% of drivers' abilities. The manufacturers will continue to up the power, and drivers will become more and more distanced from the machines. It's not really progress. These are toys - why make a competition out of it? And for the record, I think the F12 would have managed just fine with a manual box - huge power band, linear power delivery, long wheel base - it's the perfect platform for a big power/manual gearbox car. It would have been easy to drive, and so much more special.

But how can you drive through London in it right? Sadly the defining point of all supercars now.

Take off the rose tinted spectacles

By the sounds of it, puntercam has driven one to be able to say it's not good with its gearbox and the manual would be better.....

Everyone on ph seems to think car manufacturers should make cars which are perfect for a VERY small number of people who can't afford to buy them new (or wouldn't because you can get a 2nd hand xxxx for less) which lose the company money as opposed to catering for those who actually buy the products.

Strange world eh.

[Dagnut]

PunterCam said:

Dagnut said:

Would they have had dsg gearboxes if they had been available at the time? People seem to think they choose manuals out of some customer requirement for more involvement?
What is this presumption based on? It's romantic nonsense as far as I am concerned..Ferrari have always been about ultimate performance within the remit of the package, the F40 would 100% have had a twin clutch gearbox in the day.
I'm not in the corner of the auto boxes and electronic driver aids but Ferrari's only concern is the customer . Ask any daytona owners from the day and the main gripe was in fact the gearbox! near impossible to use fully until it was up to temperature.
Then leap forward to a 740hp 1600kg car and how many people could realistically manage this car without an auto and traction control? You'd have the silly balancing act of trying to get it cleanly out of your drive let alone hustle it down the road.

Dance around it all you want - would you rather have an F40 with a manual or a DSG? Would you rather have this F12 with an open gate manual or a DSG?

And those Daytona owners - I bet you not one of them would trade that gearbox experience for the world. It's a "gripe" that makes owning and driving a car more than just "driving". These "flaws" are what make so many of the great cars legends. Perfection is boring.

And as for 740bhp and 1600kgs - how do you control that without a DSG? I'd be questioning a power figure long before I questioned the suitability of a manual gearbox. Buy accepting the trend of "more power for the next model" we're killing the enthusiast car. The reason a DSG box and traction/stability systems are needed is because the car is already so far ahead of 99% of drivers' abilities. The manufacturers will continue to up the power, and drivers will become more and more distanced from the machines. It's not really progress. These are toys - why make a competition out of it? And for the record, I think the F12 would have managed just fine with a manual box - huge power band, linear power delivery, long wheel base - it's the perfect platform for a big power/manual gearbox car. It would have been easy to drive, and so much more special.

But how can you drive through London in it right? Sadly the defining point of all supercars now.

I'm not dancing around anything, you are missing the most important point Ferrari have always been about ultimate performance within the remit of the package. Taken to it's logical conclusion the F40 is far more pointless than the F12 because it is far more compromised as a road car!
Yes the owners of those cars now would take the manual but would the original owners?
Supercars have always been about the pursuit of speed and using technology facilitates this, just because the technology from a particular period suits our particular tastes it doesn't mean Ferrari's ethos has changed, it hasn't, technology has changed

[E38Ross]

Dagnut said:

I'm not dancing around anything, you are missing the most important point Ferrari have always been about ultimate performance within the remit of the package. Taken to it's logical conclusion the F40 is far more pointless than the F12 because it is far more compromised as a road car!
Yes the owners of those cars now would take the manual but would the original owners?
Supercars have always been about the pursuit of speed and using technology facilitates this, just because the technology from a particular period suits our particular tastes it doesn't mean Ferrari's ethos has changed, it hasn't, technology has changed

Well said

[007 VXR]

E38Ross said:

Dagnut said:

I'm not dancing around anything, you are missing the most important point Ferrari have always been about ultimate performance within the remit of the package. Taken to it's logical conclusion the F40 is far more pointless than the F12 because it is far more compromised as a road car!
Yes the owners of those cars now would take the manual but would the original owners?
Supercars have always been about the pursuit of speed and using technology facilitates this, just because the technology from a particular period suits our particular tastes it doesn't mean Ferrari's ethos has changed, it hasn't, technology has changed

Well said

+1 Times have changed and moved on.... The End

[Kronstein]

I wonder if, for something with the performance of an F12, a manual gearbox might actually hamper the enjoyment. On most superbikes, you don't need the clutch on upshifts - maybe the auto gives you more time to appreciate the performance and use more of it.

(The Daytonna was a truck - rather an automatic F12 any day.)

[Kenny Powers]

In summary, it's fairly safe to say that Ferrari know more about the cars that their customers want, than some car forum enthusiasts comprised of an even tinier percentage of folk who could, or ever would buy a new Ferrari.

I don't presume to know the financial status of the average Pistonhead, nor do I especially care. For sure there will be loads of guys on here that can afford such exotics, but really, how many people in this thread who haven't bought an F12, would buy one if it had a manual gearbox and door handles made from string? I estimate probably no one.

[K50 DEL]

My boss has one here in Dubai as his daily driver, traded his 458 Spider for it.

He's only done 2k KM in it so far (and hasn't yet thrown me the keys) but he says it's like nothing he's ever driven speed and acceleration wise though he finds the seats a little uncomfortable.

Interestingly he takes delivery of an MP4-12C Spider later this week, a car which he says has the most comfortable seats of anything he's driven...

[WEHGuy]

So nearly 3 years on, what are everyone's thoughts now on the F12? I'm considering selling my F430 and getting a 458 or F12.