RE: The worst used car in Britain

[300bhp/ton]

Toaster Pilot said:

I take on board your Subaru examples, but there's no need to be facetious. Treating head gasket failure as a maintenance item like a cambelt is questionable enough. I assume the K series engine is belt driven and therefore will need a cambelt replacement at a fairly standard interval too?

All I'm trying to say is, don't make too much of what is in reality probably not really an issue.

If you buy a 1.8 FL, just budget to fix the HG in your purchase cost. Chances are a good FL will only need 1 or 2 HG's in 100,000 miles, but many will be fine without any further work.

This translates into the fact, that unless you are actually likely to do 50,000+ miles in it, then there is a very high chance you won't need a HG doing at all. And if you do, then it can be done for £300-500.

Running almost any other car comes with a chance of something going wrong on it. And many other cars also suffer HG issues, only they are publicised as heavily in the media and press as the K-Series is.


Remember the K-Series was introduced in 1984 and over the years there have been millions of vehicles in daily use running a K-Series. And the very vast majority of them are perfectly fine and no bother at all. Personally I've had 3 1.8 K-Series and didn't have an HG issue with any of them.

[Steffan]

300bhp/ton said:

Toaster Pilot said:

I take on board your Subaru examples, but there's no need to be facetious. Treating head gasket failure as a maintenance item like a cambelt is questionable enough. I assume the K series engine is belt driven and therefore will need a cambelt replacement at a fairly standard interval too?

All I'm trying to say is, don't make too much of what is in reality probably not really an issue.

If you buy a 1.8 FL, just budget to fix the HG in your purchase cost. Chances are a good FL will only need 1 or 2 HG's in 100,000 miles, but many will be fine without any further work.

This translates into the fact, that unless you are actually likely to do 50,000+ miles in it, then there is a very high chance you won't need a HG doing at all. And if you do, then it can be done for £300-500.

Running almost any other car comes with a chance of something going wrong on it. And many other cars also suffer HG issues, only they are publicised as heavily in the media and press as the K-Series is.


Remember the K-Series was introduced in 1984 and over the years there have been millions of vehicles in daily use running a K-Series. And the very vast majority of them are perfectly fine and no bother at all. Personally I've had 3 1.8 K-Series and didn't have an HG issue with any of them.

I currently have a K series in a Freelander and it does seem a good um! However I have had five K series blow up some irreparably with HGR and cambelt failure. They are a very good engine if you are scrupulous in watching for any coolant loss etc. And lucky because some just go with no warning, The many recommended fixes do help.

[Toaster Pilot]

Are the 4WD bits prone to failure?

Here's a 2.5 V6 for sale http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/158804/land... that states "the propshaft has been removed hence it is currently 2WD"

Why would one do that? Too expensive to repair?

[mgv8dave]

I love mine But it is the TDI 2.0 i power have from the trusty BMW.
It's a great car as a everyday work vehicle and it is a commercial as well so it lives a hard life.
Fuel wise £20 per 100 miles no matter how i drive it and £30 per 100 miles when towing the track car at a steady speed.

I think like any old car / van you are going to be hit with running costs and mine is 11 years old now so i almost expect the odd fault ...... but it suits me fine.

[Froomee]

A friend had two if these firstly a 2.5 v6 from new and then a TD4 (about a year old) The first one went back as it had numerous issues I.e. Leaky sunroof, central locking and electric windows playing up... Complained with LR and got into a TD4.

This had a few niggles over 2 years then despite having full LRSH and having never been used in anger it lunched the gearbox 6 months outside of the warranty.

LR offered to pay 75% or so of the cost as a goodwill gesture but he still had to pay around £1k. Shortly after doing this it lunched the turbo...

After seeing the eye watering bills for buying, servicing, maintaining and for repairs I'd never buy one as there is nothing particular good about them. The ride is crashy, the interior is horrid, etc.

Maybe secondhand for a few k you could run it, use a specialist and if it did fail scrap it but there are far better options for the money unless you really need to go off road (even then there are better options I reckon).

[Steffan]

Toaster Pilot said:

Are the 4WD bits prone to failure?

Here's a 2.5 V6 for sale http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/158804/land... that states "the propshaft has been removed hence it is currently 2WD"

Why would one do that? Too expensive to repair?

Freelander now supplied in 2WD form by Landrover from new. Significantly cheaper to run and make. Yes they are prone to 4WD trouble the diffs, driveshafts and so on are not the best. But a good one takes some beating and I am on my fifth. Soon to be sixth I think. They are unmatched for the market they serve.

[300bhp/ton]

Toaster Pilot said:

Are the 4WD bits prone to failure?

Here's a 2.5 V6 for sale http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/158804/land... that states "the propshaft has been removed hence it is currently 2WD"

Why would one do that? Too expensive to repair?

The centre viscous coupling is a replaceable item, it should last 50-70k miles. However if the vehicle is a "mall crawler" and never activates the coupling or the AWD system, then they can fail earlier on.

Most people totally ignore them when they fail (they aren't too silly priced to sort). However running a FL with a sized VCU can in turn completely ruin the IRD and diff. Which suddenly means a MASSIVE repair bill.

Removing the driveshaft means you can still use the vehicle as a FWD car (this is how they normally drive, AWD only activating under front wheel slip).

Really the VCU should be higher profile as a maintenance item, but it's not. Hence it's ignored by far too many.

FL's that are used off road tend not to suffer the failures.

[MJK 24]

300bhp/ton said:

Toaster Pilot said:

I take on board your Subaru examples, but there's no need to be facetious. Treating head gasket failure as a maintenance item like a cambelt is questionable enough. I assume the K series engine is belt driven and therefore will need a cambelt replacement at a fairly standard interval too?

All I'm trying to say is, don't make too much of what is in reality probably not really an issue.

If you buy a 1.8 FL, just budget to fix the HG in your purchase cost. Chances are a good FL will only need 1 or 2 HG's in 100,000 miles, but many will be fine without any further work.

This translates into the fact, that unless you are actually likely to do 50,000+ miles in it, then there is a very high chance you won't need a HG doing at all. And if you do, then it can be done for £300-500.

Running almost any other car comes with a chance of something going wrong on it. And many other cars also suffer HG issues, only they are publicised as heavily in the media and press as the K-Series is.


Remember the K-Series was introduced in 1984 and over the years there have been millions of vehicles in daily use running a K-Series. And the very vast majority of them are perfectly fine and no bother at all. Personally I've had 3 1.8 K-Series and didn't have an HG issue with any of them.

I think K series production started in 1989, not 1984.

[Toaster Pilot]

300bhp/ton said:

The centre viscous coupling is a replaceable item, it should last 50-70k miles. However if the vehicle is a "mall crawler" and never activates the coupling or the AWD system, then they can fail earlier on.

Most people totally ignore them when they fail (they aren't too silly priced to sort). However running a FL with a sized VCU can in turn completely ruin the IRD and diff. Which suddenly means a MASSIVE repair bill.

Removing the driveshaft means you can still use the vehicle as a FWD car (this is how they normally drive, AWD only activating under front wheel slip).

Really the VCU should be higher profile as a maintenance item, but it's not. Hence it's ignored by far too many.

FL's that are used off road tend not to suffer the failures.

So that one is probably too fked to be 4WD again without paying a hell of a lot?

[bulk66]

The wifes had her 1.8 2002 Freelander two years now and all that has gone wrong was the windscreen wiper motor, its had tyres, been serviced and just gone through its MOT with a advisory on brake pipes....

[cptsideways]

The reason the centre viscous units fail is freeking obvious if you know what you are on about


Being predominantly FWD it wears the front tyres out first, then the difference in diameter front to rear is sufficient for the viscous coupling to be activated most of the time, it then overheats & then eventually seizes up solid. However at this point they damn good off road!!! Until its starts spewing diffs & CV joints out.

Its a very simple cycle of failure, I bet 1/4 of them for sale have had the rear propshafts removed.

All the viscous unit does is provide some stodge between the front & rear axle speed differences. There is no detection or automation its just a simple thing of multiple clutch plates in glupe that lock up under some rotational movement (its a newtonian fluid in there) Constant locking up overheats the glupe till its carbonises.

Easy way to tell a borked one, drive it on full lock, it should NOT be locked up initially but should lock up after about half a turn or 180deg (some tyre scrubbing should be evident)

Many of the competition don't suffer the same faults due to design differences

[infradig]

MJK 24 said:

300bhp/ton said:

IrishAsal said:

Does anyone have any info on the Freelander 2??

My sister insists on buying one (I mean really insists) but if the problem is solely related to the head gasket / engine trouble of the K series, perhaps other model years / engines are okay?

Freelanders are good vehicles period. Just read up on the problem areas. You'll find all cars have these, no matter what make or model. Only some get publicised more heavily.

The FL2 sadly has very little in common with the FL1 and uses BMW & Volvo engines and a Ford derived platform, unlike the FL1 which was mostly all Land Rover/Rover own.

I didn't think the Freelander 2 had any BMW engines?

No it hasn't,the diesel is the 2.2 Mondeo( or if we're being charitable Jaguar XF) four cylinder . Which is surprisingly lively with the 6 speed manual ,although we've been a bit disappointed with the economy of ours,it rarely betters 30 mpg. Might as well have got a Disco 3, although I think the Freelander 2 is probably cheaper if something breaks ,and less likely to. Ours hasn't gone wrong or cost a penny in the last year,don't know if that's typical,but when my wife had a puncture the RAC guy did say its about the only Land Rover apart from Defenders that he'd even consider buying!
The petrol,which is even rarer than the mk1 KV6 is indeed a Volvo unit ,a 3.2 straight six mounted transversely like a 2200 Princess.

[NailedOn]

_Neal_ said:

On a serious note, is the 2.5V6 any good when put in one of these? Seems like a lot of car for the money - was idly looking at the (quite a few) for sale on Autotrader yesterday evening.

I ran a TD4 HSE for 90,000 miles. Bit slow but reliable. Traded it in for the V6 which did 30mpg, went ok but then the IDS started creaking. I traded it in before it bust. If you test drive one, lift off and listen for a dull clunk on the override. If you hear it, avoid.

Edited by NailedOn on Wednesday 6th November 16:57

[School boy]

Nearly bought a 2.5 v6 one from a plant auction, then the auctioneer said the the centre diff was knackered.

[morgrp]

Some early diesel models were powered by the excellent and fairly robust 2.0 rover L series direct injection diesel - dirt cheap steer nowadays and ignored over the td4 models - I'd much rather the L series lump than the gutless bmw unit

[HannsG]

The newer models are meant to be brilliant no? Especially with the auto box?

[anonymous-user]

300bhp/ton said:

All I'm trying to say is, don't make too much of what is in reality probably not really an issue.

If you buy a 1.8 FL, just budget to fix the HG in your purchase cost. Chances are a good FL will only need 1 or 2 HG's in 100,000 miles, but many will be fine without any further work.

This translates into the fact, that unless you are actually likely to do 50,000+ miles in it, then there is a very high chance you won't need a HG doing at all. And if you do, then it can be done for £300-500.

Running almost any other car comes with a chance of something going wrong on it. And many other cars also suffer HG issues, only they are publicised as heavily in the media and press as the K-Series is.


Remember the K-Series was introduced in 1984 and over the years there have been millions of vehicles in daily use running a K-Series. And the very vast majority of them are perfectly fine and no bother at all. Personally I've had 3 1.8 K-Series and didn't have an HG issue with any of them.

You are wrong. The installation in the Freelander is universally described as poor. A K series is a great engine but not, and never will be in a Freelander. I see you haven't actually owned a Freelander 'K' despite describing them as 'perfectly fine'?

Have a little read up and understand why they fail in Freelanders more so than in any other installation, it's very easy to see why it's compromised. Sure fitting a remote lower temp thermostat or PRT then a bigger rad along with making sure the head isn't porous plus all the newer gaskets etc will make it reliable but even if you DIY you're looking at way more than any second hand car is worth in reality.

Best bet is to avoid them.

[mattcov]

HannsG said:

The newer models are meant to be brilliant no? Especially with the auto box?

Yes, but they are completely different cars (as in FL2) - only share the name.

[300bhp/ton]

yonex said:

You are wrong. The installation in the Freelander is universally described as poor. A K series is a great engine but not, and never will be in a Freelander. I see you haven't actually owned a Freelander 'K' despite describing them as 'perfectly fine'?

Have a little read up and understand why they fail in Freelanders more so than in any other installation, it's very easy to see why it's compromised. Sure fitting a remote lower temp thermostat or PRT then a bigger rad along with making sure the head isn't porous plus all the newer gaskets etc will make it reliable but even if you DIY you're looking at way more than any second hand car is worth in reality.

Best bet is to avoid them.

cough cough..



Well ok, it was my Mum's. But I have had first hand experience and done many 1000's of miles behind the wheel. It was only replaced due to being written off in an RTA.

[ShiresV2]

My brother ran one from new. It was so poorly made and unreliable that after some months he returned it and secured a refund.