I'll buy the car but can you remove all the electronics?
Discussion
I'm clearly getting old and while of the computer generation never played video games after pubity so I'm not a lover of all the gadgetry that has filled modern performance cars.
I don't mind it in barges and utility cars as they are specifically to get you from A to B etc.
However, in sportscars I really would live to see a return to a more mechanical bias over electrical.
Creations like ABS and airbags make sense. But I do feel that every additional electronic device removes you one step from the essence of driving.
I'm sure there are analogies to a jet fighter and its computers being more thrilling than a Spitfire but for the thrill of flying for pure pleasure I would argue that a Spitfire would be more engaging, more tactile and more emotional.
I'm guessing, looking at market forces, that I am the minority but I would live to be able to buy a modern sportscar such as a Ferrari or Maclaren without any of their clever computers. Just a stunning car that relies on ingenious mechanical engineering instead. It won't corner as fast, won't be as fast, won't be as easy to drive on the edge. All in the computer car would run rings round it but it would be infinitely more rewarding and engaging.
I just don't think sportscars need to be built to work in every corner of the globe simultaneously and that the issues that computers resolve we're what gave each of these cars their unique characters in the past.
I don't mind it in barges and utility cars as they are specifically to get you from A to B etc.
However, in sportscars I really would live to see a return to a more mechanical bias over electrical.
Creations like ABS and airbags make sense. But I do feel that every additional electronic device removes you one step from the essence of driving.
I'm sure there are analogies to a jet fighter and its computers being more thrilling than a Spitfire but for the thrill of flying for pure pleasure I would argue that a Spitfire would be more engaging, more tactile and more emotional.
I'm guessing, looking at market forces, that I am the minority but I would live to be able to buy a modern sportscar such as a Ferrari or Maclaren without any of their clever computers. Just a stunning car that relies on ingenious mechanical engineering instead. It won't corner as fast, won't be as fast, won't be as easy to drive on the edge. All in the computer car would run rings round it but it would be infinitely more rewarding and engaging.
I just don't think sportscars need to be built to work in every corner of the globe simultaneously and that the issues that computers resolve we're what gave each of these cars their unique characters in the past.
Well it's a nice idea but cars are expensive to develop and the target market for such a vehicle would be tiny so it will never happen. The best solution is, as many manufacturers do, to build a car with all the electronics in so they can sell them to everyone and fit off buttons so that those that don't want to use them don't have to.
chris182 said:
Well it's a nice idea but cars are expensive to develop and the target market for such a vehicle would be tiny so it will never happen. The best solution is, as many manufacturers do, to build a car with all the electronics in so they can sell them to everyone and fit off buttons so that those that don't want to use them don't have to.
Sadly this is true. However, a car that is designed to use electronics isn't going to be the same as one specifically designed to work best without them when you switch them off.
I agree with you completely, and I always find it slightly dismaying when colleagues talk about their sports cars in a way similar to the motoring journos.
One particular guy has a 4x4 Porsche 911 filled with performance and stability enhancing gadgetry which he loves as it's easier to drive than his previous Boxster with 2WD.
I take the opposite view. I want to be part of it.
It's been an incremental thing, I think. The Countach was famous for its silly windows, poor visibility and very heavy controls. The journos praised the Diablo as everything was a bit easier and lighter. The Murcielago and Aventador by comparison with the Countach are just fast Audis in terms of the level of effort and concentration needed to drive them, unless you really try to have fun where there aren't really many tracks available open enough to let something of that ilk really get into its stride. No doubt an Aventador is the easier car to live with, but you'd never forget you were driving something extremely special in a Countach.
I suspect the Countach will command your respect much more in normal use too.
For me, it all starts going wrong when people start talking about using sports cars and super cars daily. Off-cases like needing to transport a washing machine suddenly become disproportionate issues and suddenly MGBs are dead in favour of w
k hatchbacks with GTI written on them. Heavens forbid you hammer the loud pedal on a cold wet day. Older cars would sink their teeth into your arse in response to such hamfistedness whereas nowadays people think the car is flawed if it punishes such inept driving.
In summary - everyone is soft. Many people want to be seen in a sports car, but as soon as they're in one they start saying they'd like to make it more like a Volvo estate to live with.
One particular guy has a 4x4 Porsche 911 filled with performance and stability enhancing gadgetry which he loves as it's easier to drive than his previous Boxster with 2WD.
I take the opposite view. I want to be part of it.
It's been an incremental thing, I think. The Countach was famous for its silly windows, poor visibility and very heavy controls. The journos praised the Diablo as everything was a bit easier and lighter. The Murcielago and Aventador by comparison with the Countach are just fast Audis in terms of the level of effort and concentration needed to drive them, unless you really try to have fun where there aren't really many tracks available open enough to let something of that ilk really get into its stride. No doubt an Aventador is the easier car to live with, but you'd never forget you were driving something extremely special in a Countach.
I suspect the Countach will command your respect much more in normal use too.
For me, it all starts going wrong when people start talking about using sports cars and super cars daily. Off-cases like needing to transport a washing machine suddenly become disproportionate issues and suddenly MGBs are dead in favour of w
k hatchbacks with GTI written on them. Heavens forbid you hammer the loud pedal on a cold wet day. Older cars would sink their teeth into your arse in response to such hamfistedness whereas nowadays people think the car is flawed if it punishes such inept driving.In summary - everyone is soft. Many people want to be seen in a sports car, but as soon as they're in one they start saying they'd like to make it more like a Volvo estate to live with.
I'm one of those spoiling it for you I guess - I love electronics! I'm 44 now and still play on the PlayStation - can't wait for the PS4 to arrive this month - and was a big PC Gamer from about 25 years old until the PS3 launch when I decided to stop spending money upgrading my desktop rig twice a year.
I would get along really well with a GTR and would love a Ferrari with all the buttons on the steering wheel. In fact, the more toys and buttons to control every little thing the better for me as it does add something to the experience in my case. This is why I find older vehicles quaint and nice from a historical point of view but not ownership really.
I do see the attraction for 'back to basics' and 'pure' driving but I am firmly in the pro new tech camp.
I would get along really well with a GTR and would love a Ferrari with all the buttons on the steering wheel. In fact, the more toys and buttons to control every little thing the better for me as it does add something to the experience in my case. This is why I find older vehicles quaint and nice from a historical point of view but not ownership really.
I do see the attraction for 'back to basics' and 'pure' driving but I am firmly in the pro new tech camp.
interloper said:
Morgan, Caterham, Lotus etc all seem to fit the bill if you want to avoid too much in the way of electronic add ons.
Just avoid the mainstream.
MX5, GT86, 370Z.Just avoid the mainstream.
Very few sports cars actually have much in the way of interfering electronics like a GTR or Scooby. Many have things like TC. They have electronics that cut in once it starts to go pear shaped. Yes, some can be over nannying, but you can normally switch them off, at least beyond the point you should be driving them on the road.
I think the spitfire analogy is interesting. Modern sports cars that have all this electrical stuff are more like a Typhoon. Without the electronics they would be impossible to drive. It is needed to control the shear amount of power a modern supercar is putting out, without chucking you in to a hedge or spinning the wheels in every gear in all but perfect conditions. Take a look at TG trying to drag rage the SLS and 458 to get an idea of what would happen.
Edited by SteveSteveson on Tuesday 19th November 09:59
DonkeyApple said:
I'm clearly getting old and while of the computer generation never played video games after pubity so I'm not a lover of all the gadgetry that has filled modern performance cars.
I don't mind it in barges and utility cars as they are specifically to get you from A to B etc.
However, in sportscars I really would live to see a return to a more mechanical bias over electrical.
Creations like ABS and airbags make sense. But I do feel that every additional electronic device removes you one step from the essence of driving.
I'm sure there are analogies to a jet fighter and its computers being more thrilling than a Spitfire but for the thrill of flying for pure pleasure I would argue that a Spitfire would be more engaging, more tactile and more emotional.
I'm guessing, looking at market forces, that I am the minority but I would live to be able to buy a modern sportscar such as a Ferrari or Maclaren without any of their clever computers. Just a stunning car that relies on ingenious mechanical engineering instead. It won't corner as fast, won't be as fast, won't be as easy to drive on the edge. All in the computer car would run rings round it but it would be infinitely more rewarding and engaging.
I just don't think sportscars need to be built to work in every corner of the globe simultaneously and that the issues that computers resolve we're what gave each of these cars their unique characters in the past.
Two comments:I don't mind it in barges and utility cars as they are specifically to get you from A to B etc.
However, in sportscars I really would live to see a return to a more mechanical bias over electrical.
Creations like ABS and airbags make sense. But I do feel that every additional electronic device removes you one step from the essence of driving.
I'm sure there are analogies to a jet fighter and its computers being more thrilling than a Spitfire but for the thrill of flying for pure pleasure I would argue that a Spitfire would be more engaging, more tactile and more emotional.
I'm guessing, looking at market forces, that I am the minority but I would live to be able to buy a modern sportscar such as a Ferrari or Maclaren without any of their clever computers. Just a stunning car that relies on ingenious mechanical engineering instead. It won't corner as fast, won't be as fast, won't be as easy to drive on the edge. All in the computer car would run rings round it but it would be infinitely more rewarding and engaging.
I just don't think sportscars need to be built to work in every corner of the globe simultaneously and that the issues that computers resolve we're what gave each of these cars their unique characters in the past.
-why buy new? Plenty of rebuilt classics that fulfil the brief perfectly.
-not all new cars are like this.
DonkeyApple said:
It won't corner as fast, won't be as fast, won't be as easy to drive on the edge. All in the computer car would run rings round it but it would be infinitely more rewarding and engaging.
How would you market such a car?When a car fails on so many objective benchmarks I think you may have a hard time selling it based on the subjective feel.
Fast laps/stats can be understood from the pages of a mag or the film on TV or youtube. But the feel of a car is the kind of thing where you can only understand by driving it yourself. Now your car may be nirvana itself, but how do you get people sat in it so they "get it" and you can get some sold?
Not saying it wouldn't make a great product, but I do think it would be a hard product to market. (E.g. look at the perfume adverts on TV, they're trying to sell a smell using pictures and words. You're trying to sell a feeling, also using pictures and words.)
Maybe there's other products which rely on this kind of marketing. How do they do it? Do they have the problem of being only one product in a market where the others are able to be sold objectively and this one has to be sold subjectively?
SteveSteveson said:
interloper said:
Morgan, Caterham, Lotus etc all seem to fit the bill if you want to avoid too much in the way of electronic add ons.
Just avoid the mainstream.
MX5, GT86, 370Z.Just avoid the mainstream.
Very few sports cars actually have much in the way of interfering electronics like a GTR or Scooby. Many have things like TC. They have electronics that cut in once it starts to go pear shaped. Yes, some can be over nannying, but you can normally switch them off, at least beyond the point you should be driving them on the road.
I think the spitfire analogy is interesting. Modern sports cars that have all this electrical stuff are more like a Typhoon. Without the electronics they would be impossible to drive. It is needed to control the shear amount of power a modern supercar is putting out, without chucking you in to a hedge or spinning the wheels in every gear in all but perfect conditions. Take a look at TG trying to drag rage the SLS and 458 to get an idea of what would happen.
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