RE: AMG and Aston Martin tie the knot
Discussion
Whilst i am sure this makes total business sense, i cant help feel a little sad that another piece of the car industry rolls over and runs to Germany. It almost seems like no one else is capable of making cars, except the Japanese and lesser extend USA, even Italy had to admit defeat with Lamborghini 
Whilst i have nothing against Germany, how come they are getting it so right?
Whilst i have nothing against Germany, how come they are getting it so right?
RX7 said:
Whilst i am sure this makes total business sense, i cant help feel a little sad that another piece of the car industry rolls over and runs to Germany. It almost seems like no one else is capable of making cars, except the Japanese and lesser extend USA, even Italy had to admit defeat with Lamborghini
Whilst i have nothing against Germany, how come they are getting it so right?
Have Lamborghini cars suffered though? Does anyone complain about the engine in the Gallardo or the Aventador? When faced with bankruptcy or using German engineering to sort the engines and German money to save the brand, I think I'd rather have a world with Lamborghini than one without it.Whilst i have nothing against Germany, how come they are getting it so right?
It's not a case of the Germans getting it "right", as others can build engines, but in this case, two enormous German firms have had the money to develop engines, hence their tech ending up in other cars. Lamborghini, and more recently Aston Martin, simply didn't have the money to develop new engines and new cars to put them in, at least they couldn't afford the technology to make cars that would meet current CO2 requirements. If Aston had a huge cash injection, they could have brought into the technology and people to make those kind of engines happen, but it would have needed to be an enormous cash injection, developing engines that can stand shoulder to shoulder with the best engines in the world doesn't come cheap.
One of my favourite car memories of this year was a few months ago, whilst walking across Richmond Bridge late one friday night a black C63 estate, dropped down a couple of gears and gunned it.....the sound was glorious. If that is what Astons of the future are going to sound like then its all good.
Not to mention, Pagani has hardly suffered being in partnership with AMG.
Not to mention, Pagani has hardly suffered being in partnership with AMG.
gary71 said:
Good news for AML. Without a major OEM link up they would have gone to ground very rapidly.
...and to anyone worrying about Aston not making their own engine any more, well they haven't really done that since this one ended production in 2000.
...and what an engine that was !...and to anyone worrying about Aston not making their own engine any more, well they haven't really done that since this one ended production in 2000.
Why, oh why, do so many of you think that someone else's engine in an Aston is the only way to go 
Aston Martin is unique, and all the better for it. The last thing I want is an Aston that is just another version of another car. I'm not saying that this is what's pending, but no one here knows yet. No, Aston (presumably) doesn't have the money to develop a ground up new engine, but they have just gotten some very considerable investment -- and "access" to AMG tech. Use that properly and strengthen Aston Martin, and don't take the easy and less-expensive path and risk destroying its heritage.
To do right by Aston, the AMG deal must result in bespoke Aston engines. By "bespoke" I don't mean a completely new Tadek Marek-like engine. Start with an AMG engine and then make it bespoke to the same degree that the current engines are (to reiterate, the current V8 is "based on" the Jag V8 but has its own Aston-only block, crank, bearings, rods, pistons, rings, cams, valves, heads, etc.). This would suffice for me, and would be a car I'd love to own. However, an Aston with a "retuned" AMG engine would be the beginning of the end of Aston Martin IMO, and would ensure that I would not buy another new one.
Aston Martin is unique, and all the better for it. The last thing I want is an Aston that is just another version of another car. I'm not saying that this is what's pending, but no one here knows yet. No, Aston (presumably) doesn't have the money to develop a ground up new engine, but they have just gotten some very considerable investment -- and "access" to AMG tech. Use that properly and strengthen Aston Martin, and don't take the easy and less-expensive path and risk destroying its heritage.
To do right by Aston, the AMG deal must result in bespoke Aston engines. By "bespoke" I don't mean a completely new Tadek Marek-like engine. Start with an AMG engine and then make it bespoke to the same degree that the current engines are (to reiterate, the current V8 is "based on" the Jag V8 but has its own Aston-only block, crank, bearings, rods, pistons, rings, cams, valves, heads, etc.). This would suffice for me, and would be a car I'd love to own. However, an Aston with a "retuned" AMG engine would be the beginning of the end of Aston Martin IMO, and would ensure that I would not buy another new one.
Speedraser said:
Aston Martin is unique, and all the better for it. The last thing I want is an Aston that is just another version of another car.
Only the very biggest manufacturers can afford engine development these days - or manufacturers who can charge ridiculous prices to customers who won't expect reliability.Aston are simply moving with the times. Their customers need to do the same.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Aston are simply moving with the times. Their customers need to do the same.
?!!!This is interesting news. In the worst case, you'll get an Aston Martin powered by a Mercedes-AMG engine that's identical to those in a C-class/E-class, but with a different badge stuck on top of it. And with a different engine map so that the power output looks a bit different and they can pretend it's a different engine. Effective, yes, but hardly bespoke. It's not the kind of thing that an Aston customer is looking for, nor is accustomed to.
And can you mount the AMG engines low enough in the chassis? The only dry-sump they do is from the SLS.
In the best case, it will just be another way of having engines designed/built specifically for - and unique to - Aston Martin. Even if they are based on that from another road car, it's not a big deal.
Speedraser said:
To do right by Aston, the AMG deal must result in bespoke Aston engines. By "bespoke" I don't mean a completely new Tadek Marek-like engine. Start with an AMG engine and then make it bespoke to the same degree that the current engines are (to reiterate, the current V8 is "based on" the Jag V8 but has its own Aston-only block, crank, bearings, rods, pistons, rings, cams, valves, heads, etc.). This would suffice for me, and would be a car I'd love to own.
I think there is absolutely zero chance of Aston getting a bespoke engine from Merc, unless it's for a One-77 like range-topping car. I fully expect the DB9s and vantage to get off the shelf units, probably AMG, with perhaps a different map/calibration. This is fine by me.V8 FOU said:
B10 said:
So not much change really. Ford derived engines made in Germany. To MB derived engines made in Germany. It would be nice if AM designed and built their own engines with AMG input.
A bit like TVR then?BTW. The article mentions that a PH'er with "inside knowledge" was wrong. Surely not!!
Speedraser said:
As I've said before, I expect the tie-up to stretch eventually to the V12s as well. AM will provide useful additional volume that makes continued development of the their V12 viable. No other manufacturer is in that position so without Aston Martin as customer, Mercedes-Benz would be forced over time to spend prohibitive amounts on each V12 or just drop them altogether.
Aston buys them some time and the investment shows they are keen to try and grow the business and perhaps invest more in years to come. After all, Daimler backed out of the Maybach affair with their tail between their legs. Maybe a new V12 Lagonda in 4 or 5 years is just what the group needs to take on Rolls-Royce & Bentley?
Speedraser said:
Why, oh why, do so many of you think that someone else's engine in an Aston is the only way to go
Aston Martin is unique, and all the better for it. The last thing I want is an Aston that is just another version of another car. I'm not saying that this is what's pending, but no one here knows yet. No, Aston (presumably) doesn't have the money to develop a ground up new engine, but they have just gotten some very considerable investment -- and "access" to AMG tech. Use that properly and strengthen Aston Martin, and don't take the easy and less-expensive path and risk destroying its heritage.
To do right by Aston, the AMG deal must result in bespoke Aston engines. By "bespoke" I don't mean a completely new Tadek Marek-like engine. Start with an AMG engine and then make it bespoke to the same degree that the current engines are (to reiterate, the current V8 is "based on" the Jag V8 but has its own Aston-only block, crank, bearings, rods, pistons, rings, cams, valves, heads, etc.). This would suffice for me, and would be a car I'd love to own. However, an Aston with a "retuned" AMG engine would be the beginning of the end of Aston Martin IMO, and would ensure that I would not buy another new one.
When "unique" equals "unable to develop world class engines with the power the markets wants" it becomes a handicap. Having access to AMG engine technology sounds like a fantastic opportunity for Aston - it means they can buy in the basic structure of the engine, and concentrate on making the rest of the car a true Aston.Aston Martin is unique, and all the better for it. The last thing I want is an Aston that is just another version of another car. I'm not saying that this is what's pending, but no one here knows yet. No, Aston (presumably) doesn't have the money to develop a ground up new engine, but they have just gotten some very considerable investment -- and "access" to AMG tech. Use that properly and strengthen Aston Martin, and don't take the easy and less-expensive path and risk destroying its heritage.
To do right by Aston, the AMG deal must result in bespoke Aston engines. By "bespoke" I don't mean a completely new Tadek Marek-like engine. Start with an AMG engine and then make it bespoke to the same degree that the current engines are (to reiterate, the current V8 is "based on" the Jag V8 but has its own Aston-only block, crank, bearings, rods, pistons, rings, cams, valves, heads, etc.). This would suffice for me, and would be a car I'd love to own. However, an Aston with a "retuned" AMG engine would be the beginning of the end of Aston Martin IMO, and would ensure that I would not buy another new one.
bobberz said:
gary71 said:
Good news for AML. Without a major OEM link up they would have gone to ground very rapidly.
...and to anyone worrying about Aston not making their own engine any more, well they haven't really done that since this one ended production in 2000.
That is beautiful! ...and to anyone worrying about Aston not making their own engine any more, well they haven't really done that since this one ended production in 2000.
And 550bhp from an engine that first saw light in the 70's, and was constantly developed for over 20 years, not bad at all.
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