Winter tyres vol 2
Discussion
popeyewhite said:
Kawasicki said:
FiF said:
Kawasicki said:
Are we supposed to be surprised that a winter tyre has less grip than a summer tyre on dry roads?
Apparently, couple of years back someone on here put full winters on a BMW M3 and then complained that they didn't feel precise negotiating sweeping bends on the M62 motorway at well into three figure speeds. Bends that officially had a design speed of 90mph.No accounting for stupid.
“A winter tyre is better in winter!“
Well, no, not always.
“A winter tyre is better on very cold roads!“
Again, not always.
What does “better“ mean anyway?
None of which negates the previous point of criticising the rather stupid complaint by whoever it was that a tyre with deeper tread, softer rubber and lots of wobbly grooves and sipes is less precise at extremes of use in conditions for which the said equipment was not primarily targeted in comparison with M3 oem fit.
Ron99 said:
I agree.
How about considering the recent all-season tyre test in a UK publication ('AE'), where Conti Prem and Conti Winter were used as reference tyres?
In their wet braking, Conti Winter, Conti All Season and Goodyear Vector were very similar to Conti Premium Contact.
In their wet handling test, all the tyres beat the Conti Prems, with Conti Winter and Goodyear Vector performing particularly well.
Not surprisingly, in the dry testing the Conti Winter and Goodyear Vector were noticeably behind the Conti Prems although the Michelin CrossClimate were quite close.
And my 'butt dyno' agrees because the all-season tyres (CC+ and Vector 2) on two of our household's cars are noticeably better on cool, damp roads than our two cars with summer tyres (P Zero and Conti Eco).
I think I've used winter tyres since 2012 on an Audi A6 quattro, but the window of less than 5 degrees seems to have gotten much smaller.How about considering the recent all-season tyre test in a UK publication ('AE'), where Conti Prem and Conti Winter were used as reference tyres?
In their wet braking, Conti Winter, Conti All Season and Goodyear Vector were very similar to Conti Premium Contact.
In their wet handling test, all the tyres beat the Conti Prems, with Conti Winter and Goodyear Vector performing particularly well.
Not surprisingly, in the dry testing the Conti Winter and Goodyear Vector were noticeably behind the Conti Prems although the Michelin CrossClimate were quite close.
And my 'butt dyno' agrees because the all-season tyres (CC+ and Vector 2) on two of our household's cars are noticeably better on cool, damp roads than our two cars with summer tyres (P Zero and Conti Eco).
It was 13C her in Somerset today...and Xmas less than 3 weeks away!
But I have run Cross Climate+ on my leased C-HR and they coped real well in (the 3 days of) snow conditions last year when none of my neighbours could get out of our street
As the Toyota goes back in Feb I've just bought a 66 plate Peug 2008 with something called 'grip control', cars so equipped come with Vector 4 Season rubber as standard. Not sure if it actually does anything but am looking forward in finding out.
Just put the Winter boots on my big bus. Pic below.
My dilemma now is the 911 - may as well post a pic too. I try to drive it regularly but obviously if there is bad weather I can drive the big car which has winter tyres now. I have some winter tyres already which could fit on the back but aren't ideal. The boxster or 986 (sorry I'm a Porsche nerd) shares the same width tyres of 205 50 front and 255 40 rear. Porsche approved winter tyres back in the day - my car is a 1998. The Porsche pdf I found says the below - extract of the relevant bits -
Approved 986 winter rear is on 8.5 inch rim
225 45 17 load rating 94
Or
255 40 17 load rating 98
Approved 996 winter rear is on 9 inch rim
255 40 17 load rating 98
I already have some dunlop winter sport 225 45 17 tyres from a different car but I think they are 91 load rating - although I cant find any more for sale at 91 so 2nd guessing myself this could be wrong.
I was sure the 986 used a 9 inch rim and could accept a slightly stretched 225 45 tyre. Now the Porsche pdf I've found contradicts this as it says the 986 is approved for 225 45 on an 8.5 inch rim.
So I have a few options here
Just use the 225 45 winter tyres I have and source some matching fronts.
Buy a full set of correctly sized 205 / 255 winters.
Buy a full set of incorrectly sized 4 seasons - I can't find a 4 season in 255 40 17 so this would force my hand to go 225 45 anyway.
A bit about me. I've been using winter tyres now since around 2011. Once I realised winter tyres existed I started using them and thought they were great. Yes they move around a bit more but feel fine once you get used to them. I had them on all my cars without fail every year. Last year I didn't fit winters to my Boxster (different car to the one discussed above) even though I already had them from the year before. I'd read all the discussion about a good summer being as good or better than a winter at things like braking and stopping distance and was therefore 2nd guessing myself and thinking maybe I'd been wrong going for full winters in this climate etc. It was this time last year almost to the day that I aquaplained in that car on the motorway. I was fine but the car wasn't. Dont want to go on too much about this again because I've done that to death last year but do want to say that I firmly believe from just looking at the tread of a winter tyre that they must be better at dealing with standing water than a summer tyre. That belief gets people arguing so maybe another pic of my car crashed will distract from this.
I mention this because it tells you that I prefer the idea of a thinner tyre overall as this will minimise aquaplaining - I dont want to be doing that again. Also I dont intend to use the 4 season tyres all year round as I would fit summers anyway unless they are that much better at dealing with wet weather and dont detract much from the dry grip too much in which case I might be converted. My 911 has so much grip in the dry on summers that I can't imagine noticing if I lose a bit from tyre choice. This is why I changed from 18 wheels and tyres to the 17 inch setup, the wider 18 tyres are just overkill if you ask me and the thinner 17 have more than enough grip and make me feel better about driving through standing water. Although recently the car has become a bit skittish in this colder damp weather. But remember there is no correct sized rear 4 season tyre that I can find.
I can accept that full winters are perhaps overkill in our climate and perhaps a 4 season makes more sense in our mild winter. I've never tried a 4 season myself. I told myself last year after the aquaplaining which could have ended much worse for me that I would not skimp on tyres and would always use winters. Obviously this can flex a little for a 4 season maybe.
Finally I do a lot less driving this year as I've simplified my work drive balance. Commute is just 5 miles all 30mph so I'm much less likely to be stuck far far away from home if snow surprises us.
So how much of a compromise is a 4 season or do they make sense here - bearing in mind this would force me to go for the thinner rear tyre stretched a bit?
Which would what be better at dealing with aquaplaining?
Or should I just go full winters and if so do I go for the thinner rear tyres I have but stretched a bit and balls to the load rating concern - the car is quite light by modern standards anyway?
Wow that ended up being a lot longer than I thought.
My dilemma now is the 911 - may as well post a pic too. I try to drive it regularly but obviously if there is bad weather I can drive the big car which has winter tyres now. I have some winter tyres already which could fit on the back but aren't ideal. The boxster or 986 (sorry I'm a Porsche nerd) shares the same width tyres of 205 50 front and 255 40 rear. Porsche approved winter tyres back in the day - my car is a 1998. The Porsche pdf I found says the below - extract of the relevant bits -
Approved 986 winter rear is on 8.5 inch rim
225 45 17 load rating 94
Or
255 40 17 load rating 98
Approved 996 winter rear is on 9 inch rim
255 40 17 load rating 98
I already have some dunlop winter sport 225 45 17 tyres from a different car but I think they are 91 load rating - although I cant find any more for sale at 91 so 2nd guessing myself this could be wrong.
I was sure the 986 used a 9 inch rim and could accept a slightly stretched 225 45 tyre. Now the Porsche pdf I've found contradicts this as it says the 986 is approved for 225 45 on an 8.5 inch rim.
So I have a few options here
Just use the 225 45 winter tyres I have and source some matching fronts.
Buy a full set of correctly sized 205 / 255 winters.
Buy a full set of incorrectly sized 4 seasons - I can't find a 4 season in 255 40 17 so this would force my hand to go 225 45 anyway.
A bit about me. I've been using winter tyres now since around 2011. Once I realised winter tyres existed I started using them and thought they were great. Yes they move around a bit more but feel fine once you get used to them. I had them on all my cars without fail every year. Last year I didn't fit winters to my Boxster (different car to the one discussed above) even though I already had them from the year before. I'd read all the discussion about a good summer being as good or better than a winter at things like braking and stopping distance and was therefore 2nd guessing myself and thinking maybe I'd been wrong going for full winters in this climate etc. It was this time last year almost to the day that I aquaplained in that car on the motorway. I was fine but the car wasn't. Dont want to go on too much about this again because I've done that to death last year but do want to say that I firmly believe from just looking at the tread of a winter tyre that they must be better at dealing with standing water than a summer tyre. That belief gets people arguing so maybe another pic of my car crashed will distract from this.
I mention this because it tells you that I prefer the idea of a thinner tyre overall as this will minimise aquaplaining - I dont want to be doing that again. Also I dont intend to use the 4 season tyres all year round as I would fit summers anyway unless they are that much better at dealing with wet weather and dont detract much from the dry grip too much in which case I might be converted. My 911 has so much grip in the dry on summers that I can't imagine noticing if I lose a bit from tyre choice. This is why I changed from 18 wheels and tyres to the 17 inch setup, the wider 18 tyres are just overkill if you ask me and the thinner 17 have more than enough grip and make me feel better about driving through standing water. Although recently the car has become a bit skittish in this colder damp weather. But remember there is no correct sized rear 4 season tyre that I can find.
I can accept that full winters are perhaps overkill in our climate and perhaps a 4 season makes more sense in our mild winter. I've never tried a 4 season myself. I told myself last year after the aquaplaining which could have ended much worse for me that I would not skimp on tyres and would always use winters. Obviously this can flex a little for a 4 season maybe.
Finally I do a lot less driving this year as I've simplified my work drive balance. Commute is just 5 miles all 30mph so I'm much less likely to be stuck far far away from home if snow surprises us.
So how much of a compromise is a 4 season or do they make sense here - bearing in mind this would force me to go for the thinner rear tyre stretched a bit?
Which would what be better at dealing with aquaplaining?
Or should I just go full winters and if so do I go for the thinner rear tyres I have but stretched a bit and balls to the load rating concern - the car is quite light by modern standards anyway?
Wow that ended up being a lot longer than I thought.
ATM said:
Which would what be better at dealing with aquaplaining?
A tyre with deep tread, driven as slowly as you can get away with.Probably winter tyres cope a little better because they often have an extra mm or two of tread (when new).
The best tyres for dry are often tyres which are near the wear bars; the complete opposite of what's ideal for wet or winter weather. As winter tyres wear, they become more like a summer tyre.
In a number of published tests, the relatively sporty all season Michelin CrossClimate+ seems to be one of the weaker tyres for aquaplaning.
jon- said:
Thanks for all the suggestions guys, some are good and already planned for 2020 (worn testing etc), some are good but fairly impossible as far as I'm aware (different surface testing at different temperatures etc).
OK. Hope you manage to plan some of those for 2020 - I look forward to seeing some of them.Thanks, and have a good Christmas.
FiF said:
None of which negates the previous point of criticising the rather stupid complaint by whoever it was that a tyre with deeper tread, softer rubber and lots of wobbly grooves and sipes is less precise at extremes of use in conditions for which the said equipment was not primarily targeted in comparison with M3 oem fit.
It's a common misconception that winter tyres won't negatively affect a sports car's handling, but a long sweeping bend certainly won't highlight that much. Lots of short bends with quick straights in between would though.I know very little about tyres so when buying just go for a tyre that will give good "in the wet" braking. So I use Uniroyal Rain Sport tyres.
Are these a reasonable compromise for winter/summer use for someone who doesn't want to change tyres with the seasons or are they deemed c**p by those in the know?
(I did consider Michelin Cross Climates but can't get them in my car size).
Thanks for your views.
Are these a reasonable compromise for winter/summer use for someone who doesn't want to change tyres with the seasons or are they deemed c**p by those in the know?
(I did consider Michelin Cross Climates but can't get them in my car size).
Thanks for your views.
Above 7 degrees summer tyres perform better than winters.
Those fitting winters should be prepared to swap and change tyres on a ridiculously frequent basis if they want optimum tyre performance in this country.
This is why I don't bother. I drive to the conditions. I take it easy in bad conditions.
Awaits argument ...
However, I've also not taken it easy in temperatures below 7 degrees on summer tyres.
Daily.
I didn't die.
Those fitting winters should be prepared to swap and change tyres on a ridiculously frequent basis if they want optimum tyre performance in this country.
This is why I don't bother. I drive to the conditions. I take it easy in bad conditions.
Awaits argument ...
However, I've also not taken it easy in temperatures below 7 degrees on summer tyres.
Daily.
I didn't die.
Graveworm said:
Barchettaman said:
I can help you with that.
Worn winters are bloody lethal in cold/wet conditions. Just comically understeery.
Thanks, how worn, obviously they are no longer winters if they are below 4mm but how do they do at 5 or 6 mm for instance. The Auto Bild test is sobering but it wasn't a true test of natural wear and ageing,. Also the temperatures were not as controlled as the tests we have just seen. Worn winters are bloody lethal in cold/wet conditions. Just comically understeery.
Edited by Graveworm on Friday 6th December 12:57
On our Chevrolet Orlando they were Goodride winters, 5mm all round, again the thing just wanted to plough straight ahead on every corner. Both cars are pretty uninspiring to drive at the best of times without trying to launch into every hedgerow.
Anyway, they're both on Nexen N-Blue four season tyres now and the difference is (cliché alert) night and day. I did quite a lot of KMs on the Nexens last winter in snow, no worries at all. Highly recommended.
Red 4 said:
Above 7 degrees summer tyres perform better than winters.
Those fitting winters should be prepared to swap and change tyres on a ridiculously frequent basis if they want optimum tyre performance in this country.
This is why I don't bother. I drive to the conditions. I take it easy in bad conditions.
Awaits argument ...
However, I've also not taken it easy in temperatures below 7 degrees on summer tyres.
Daily.
I didn't die.
Yeah it's like a switch at 7 degrees. Really annoying changing wheels at least twice a day.Those fitting winters should be prepared to swap and change tyres on a ridiculously frequent basis if they want optimum tyre performance in this country.
This is why I don't bother. I drive to the conditions. I take it easy in bad conditions.
Awaits argument ...
However, I've also not taken it easy in temperatures below 7 degrees on summer tyres.
Daily.
I didn't die.
Winters on my Bentley .
Love both , the car + tyres .....Dunlop winter sports .
I don’t get the overwhelming negativity here , completely different attitudes and laws in the rest of Europe .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhSvptuuQsg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfOTcAqjqqw
Love both , the car + tyres .....Dunlop winter sports .
I don’t get the overwhelming negativity here , completely different attitudes and laws in the rest of Europe .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhSvptuuQsg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfOTcAqjqqw
Red 4 said:
Above 7 degrees summer tyres perform better than winters.
Those fitting winters should be prepared to swap and change tyres on a ridiculously frequent basis if they want optimum tyre performance in this country.
This is why I don't bother. I drive to the conditions. I take it easy in bad conditions.
Awaits argument ...
However, I've also not taken it easy in temperatures below 7 degrees on summer tyres.
Daily.
I didn't die.
2/10. Nothing that hasn't been said before. A rather poor effort. Those fitting winters should be prepared to swap and change tyres on a ridiculously frequent basis if they want optimum tyre performance in this country.
This is why I don't bother. I drive to the conditions. I take it easy in bad conditions.
Awaits argument ...
However, I've also not taken it easy in temperatures below 7 degrees on summer tyres.
Daily.
I didn't die.
mstrbkr said:
Yeah it's like a switch at 7 degrees. Really annoying changing wheels at least twice a day.
For those in less than Arctic climates perhaps consider switching to good all-seasons for the winter? They work better than your (UHP) summers in the (few) days the weather really sucks, while not falling off a cliff when it is warmer. Been very happy using a set of Michelin PSSs in summer and a set of CCs for winter. Kolbenkopp said:
For those in less than Arctic climates perhaps consider switching to good all-seasons for the winter? They work better than your (UHP) summers in the (few) days the weather really sucks, while not falling off a cliff when it is warmer. Been very happy using a set of Michelin PSSs in summer and a set of CCs for winter.
Sorry, I wasn't being serious! I was humouring the troll. I have Goodyear Vector 4 seasons on my car right now, had all seasons on previous cars, and winters on an S2000 I used to own. I'm pro-winter tyre Kolbenkopp said:
For those in less than Arctic climates perhaps consider switching to good all-seasons for the winter? They work better than your (UHP) summers in the (few) days the weather really sucks, while not falling off a cliff when it is warmer. Been very happy using a set of Michelin PSSs in summer and a set of CCs for winter.
This is very much the way forward. Some useful videos here that everyone should find informative
ABS takes longer to stop on snow/ice:
https://youtu.be/fge_m9u864k
4wd vs 2wd stopping distances on snow/ice:
https://youtu.be/fMHSBXjiyac
Difference between ice, snow & winter tyres. And how some tyre makers enhance test results:
https://youtu.be/21gnGy4ltOw
ABS takes longer to stop on snow/ice:
https://youtu.be/fge_m9u864k
4wd vs 2wd stopping distances on snow/ice:
https://youtu.be/fMHSBXjiyac
Difference between ice, snow & winter tyres. And how some tyre makers enhance test results:
https://youtu.be/21gnGy4ltOw
300bhp/ton said:
Some useful videos here that everyone should find informative
ABS takes longer to stop on snow/ice:
https://youtu.be/fge_m9u864k
Wow that was an eye opener for me. ABS takes longer to stop on snow/ice:
https://youtu.be/fge_m9u864k
MikeStroud said:
300bhp/ton said:
Some useful videos here that everyone should find informative
ABS takes longer to stop on snow/ice:
https://youtu.be/fge_m9u864k
Wow that was an eye opener for me. ABS takes longer to stop on snow/ice:
https://youtu.be/fge_m9u864k
However the ABS concept was to allow steering while braking.
I'm massively glad I had winters on this morning. BMW 340i touring, Vredestein Wintrac Pros (brand new).
Just over freezing this morning when I had to emergency stop to avoid crashing into someone that pulled out in front of me - there's no doubt in my mind that I would have hit the other party if I was on the summer tyres, as I ended up around 1 metre away from the other car at a dead stop.
Just over freezing this morning when I had to emergency stop to avoid crashing into someone that pulled out in front of me - there's no doubt in my mind that I would have hit the other party if I was on the summer tyres, as I ended up around 1 metre away from the other car at a dead stop.
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