Winter tyres vol 2
Discussion
Davie said:
Pica-Pica said:
I recall getting my E36 RWD with Conti summer tyres off wet grass, when SUVs were getting stuck. I had no time to check if they were AWD or what tyres they had, I was away and gone! Driving on (sound) wet grass is just technique.
Fair enough. Change 'wet grass' to 'snow' and thus thread suddenly becomes pointless and you become that person who thinks a lack grip from a tyre can be overcome by driving slower? This is why this place is going to the dogs... you give a personal opinion based on experience and some boorish type wades in to point out that you must be lacking in the driving skills department rather than accept that tyres can be compromised when faced with conditions that aren't 'normal' and that there are tyres that are better suited to such conditions than others.Evanivitch said:
Winter tyres often give better performance in the wet and at temperatures below 8C. So October/November through to March/April (especially early mornings) temperatures and many areas seeing 50% of days having rain.
The point being, the performance of a winter tyre is perhaps 10% worse in dry and warm, bit the performance of a summer tyre in cold and wet is significantly worse.
The most recent AutoExpress all-season tyre test was interesting because it had Conti Prem summer and Conti TS860 winter as benchmarks.The point being, the performance of a winter tyre is perhaps 10% worse in dry and warm, bit the performance of a summer tyre in cold and wet is significantly worse.
The Conti winter tyre compared to the Conti summer tyre was:
Dry braking: 19% worse
Dry handling: 1% worse
Wet braking: 2% worse
Wet handling: 11% better
Straight aqua: 4% better
Curved aqua: 4% better
Snow braking: twice as good
Snow handling: almost twice as good
Snow traction: almost three times as good
Rolling resistance: 1% better.
Cabin noise: 20% better.
Davie said:
Countdown said:
I wish people wouldn’t say that tyres were “lethal”. They’re not. It’s incompetent drivers that are lethal.
I'm not sure what's incompetent about driving along an NSL road in the dark, with driving rain and having two wagons approach only to hit standing water and the car aquaplane and be dragged towards the kerb before deciding "Nope, these tyres are past their best" I could give several examples of where the car was being driven competently and yet the tyres were struggling for grip and felt like control had been compromised. To me that's pretty lethal and I'm not really sure what driver competency would have to do with it?
Sometimes I wish people wouldn't be so picky and act like such driving Gods... right up there with the bellends who scoff at winter tyres and instead state "driving slower" is the solution.
I have never found tyres to behave unpredictably. They have a certain level of grip and when that level is exceeded, for whatever reason, the driver loses control. If/when that happens (and it's happened to me a few times over the course of the last 30 years) it's always been my fault for not recognising a hazard, or the likelihood of a hazard, occurring. If I hit standing water (and it's been raining for the last 2 weeks) it's not the tyres' fault if I aquaplane. Nor have the tyres suddenly become hydrophobic. It's completely my lack of anticipation and adjusting my driving style.
B'stard Child said:
Davie said:
Pica-Pica said:
I recall getting my E36 RWD with Conti summer tyres off wet grass, when SUVs were getting stuck. I had no time to check if they were AWD or what tyres they had, I was away and gone! Driving on (sound) wet grass is just technique.
Fair enough. Change 'wet grass' to 'snow' and thus thread suddenly becomes pointless and you become that person who thinks a lack grip from a tyre can be overcome by driving slower? This is why this place is going to the dogs... you give a personal opinion based on experience and some boorish type wades in to point out that you must be lacking in the driving skills department rather than accept that tyres can be compromised when faced with conditions that aren't 'normal' and that there are tyres that are better suited to such conditions than others.So a question. Why mention damp grass, Davie?
Pica-Pica said:
It was Davie-boy who brought up the wet grass situation, not me! I was quite happy to discuss winter conditions.
So a question. Why mention damp grass, Davie?
I mentioned as winter tyres (or all seasons) seem to be mainly associated with snow. It was also mentioned about running summer tyres most of the year until the temperate drops. My reference to damp grass was to point out that all season / winters don't just work well in winter. I had SportMaxx, they were great in the dry and wet but their lack of cross tyre tread meant I found them pretty poor for getting traction in reduced grip conditions, like wet grass... in June... when I got stuck. So if they struggled there, I'd suspect they'd struggle in snow / slush / mud, no matter how slowly you went and so it was me basically saying that said premium summer tyres don't work for me as well as all seasons / winters, even in summer. But that's the thing, we all have unique circumstances and requirements so there's no right or wrong and driving skills don't really come into it. So a question. Why mention damp grass, Davie?
Davie said:
I just worked on the basis that my last set of Dunlop SportMaxx were utterly crap when faced with anything bar clean tarmac and we're actually frighteningly bad on any sort of reduced grip surface. Getting stuck on level, damp grass was the final straw.
I've found the SportMaxx to be an excellent summer tyre on my AMG. Sticky, quiet and they let go quite progressively (on the occasion I overdo my right foot). They don't last that long, but that's the price you pay for excellent grip. On tarmac. I would imagine they'd be awful on damp grass as that is just about as opposite as possible to what they are designed for.I've run winters (during winter) on an E63 AMG, and took them off after three weeks. They dulled the handling and messed up the TC to such an extent they actually increased TED!
Kawasicki said:
From my experience as a tyre developer/tester summer tyres generally have more grip than winter tyres, even at temperatures below 7C. On snow winter tyres have hugely more grip.
You can rig tyre tests to show otherwise, though. Picking a very smooth/slick friction surface will often get a better result for winter tyres.
Interesting post. You can rig tyre tests to show otherwise, though. Picking a very smooth/slick friction surface will often get a better result for winter tyres.
The tyres were pumped on my Mazda 6 so I was trying to decide what tyre to get (why do manufacturers put big wheels on a standard family car??). I live about 10 miles from the most Northly point on the mainland but snow isn't as common as it is further south but cold and rain is. For me this meant all seasons made the most sense, so plumped for Vredestein Quatrac Pro, which seem to get much better reviews than the Quatrac 5 but not mentioned in any British based test. Only had then on for a few days but they are quiet and handling feels the same.
ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
Kawasicki said:
From my experience as a tyre developer/tester summer tyres generally have more grip than winter tyres, even at temperatures below 7C. On snow winter tyres have hugely more grip.
You can rig tyre tests to show otherwise, though. Picking a very smooth/slick friction surface will often get a better result for winter tyres.
Interesting post. You can rig tyre tests to show otherwise, though. Picking a very smooth/slick friction surface will often get a better result for winter tyres.
Looking at how a tyre performed in several tyre tests probably gives a better idea of how it performs.
There's still the question of how results from the good surfaces of test tracks translate to the very different crumbling road surfaces in the UK.
I would have thought that a softer (winter) rubber would be better to mould itself to the very rough/uneven surface of UK roads compared to a harder (summer) rubber with less flexibility.
As for tyre performance at low temperatures, we have four cars in our household. The tyres are Pirelli P Zero, Michelin CrossClimate+, Conti Eco Contact (wife's), Goodyear Vector 2 (wife's).
Although I haven't checked at exactly 7'C, certainly around 5'C the Eco Contacts and P Zeros feel hard and skittish unless I'm really pressing on and adding heat to the tyres from driving fast/hard (really pressing on in cold weather is asking for trouble). If I get held up behind something slower - even briefly - the tyres quickly harden and go skittish again until run hard for a minute or two.
On cold or cold-wet roads I much prefer driving the cars with the CC+ or Vector 2 tyres. Since Vectors seem to be basically winter tyres with an all-season label stuck on them I expect winter tyres would also feel better to drive on than our summer-tyred cars.
It's possible the eco bias of the Eco Contacts means harder rubber (less energy wasted in deformation) and the sporty bias of the P Zeros also means harder rubber to withstand the heat of hard summer driving and not be so soft as to be shredded by a powerful car trying to get the power down.
Kawasicki said:
From my experience as a tyre developer/tester summer tyres generally have more grip than winter tyres, even at temperatures below 7C. On snow winter tyres have hugely more grip.
You can rig tyre tests to show otherwise, though. Picking a very smooth/slick friction surface will often get a better result for winter tyres.
Interesting comment - but would the road not be wet and slippy at below 7C and this become that slick surface that winters excel in? Surely at air temps below 3 or 4, the road surface could be much colder and any remaining dampness on the surface will form into ice - the roads never seem to fully dry out over winter - its just generally not warm enough. Even if the air temp gets into double figures, the road temp isnt high enough consistently to keep the surface dry.You can rig tyre tests to show otherwise, though. Picking a very smooth/slick friction surface will often get a better result for winter tyres.
We have had a few cold mornings here, road surface frosty and the day I swapped to winters, noticed that the car was much less inclined to engage TC when accelerating sharply than it was the day before with summers on (both around the same level of tread)
Tomo1971 said:
Interesting comment - but would the road not be wet and slippy at below 7C
Why?Tomo1971 said:
..and this become that slick surface that winters excel in? Surely at air temps below 3 or 4, the road surface could be much colder and any remaining dampness on the surface will form into ice
Freezing level is zero, and unless there's a biting wind I'm not sure why ice crystals would form. For a road surface to be much colder it would mean previous temps had been much colder and the road surface stored the cold, and further if previous temps had been warmer the road surface would store the heat and possibly prevent freezing. After an extended bought of freezing weather you may have a point. I'll bet at the moment in the UK the road surface is slightly warmer than the ambient temp.popeyewhite said:
Tomo1971 said:
Interesting comment - but would the road not be wet and slippy at below 7C
Why?After a cold spell the ground and roads can be much colder than the air for several days. Condensation will form on the roads until they've warmed up again. The roads can be near-freezing and wet with condensation even with air temperatures above the 'magic' 7'C quoted for winter tyres.
Ron99 said:
popeyewhite said:
Tomo1971 said:
Interesting comment - but would the road not be wet and slippy at below 7C
Why?After a cold spell the ground and roads can be much colder than the air for several days. Condensation will form on the roads until they've warmed up again. The roads can be near-freezing and wet with condensation even with air temperatures above the 'magic' 7'C quoted for winter tyres.
popeyewhite said:
. After an extended bought of freezing weather you may have a point. I'll bet at the moment in the UK the road surface is slightly warmer than the ambient temp.
According to historical weather data, in my area (East Anglia) the temperature of the ground at a depth of several inches averages about 8'C in November, 6'C in December, 5'C in January, 5'C in February, 6'C in March, 9'C in April.My experiences are that cold roads leading to condensation tends to be December-February. But even on cold dry roads I prefer the CrossClimates or Vectors over the EcoContacts or P Zeros.
Ron99 said:
popeyewhite said:
. After an extended bought of freezing weather you may have a point. I'll bet at the moment in the UK the road surface is slightly warmer than the ambient temp.
According to historical weather data, in my area (East Anglia) the temperature of the ground at a depth of several inches averages about 8'C in November, 6'C in December, 5'C in January, 5'C in February, 6'C in March, 9'C in April.My experiences are that cold roads leading to condensation tends to be December-February. But even on cold dry roads I prefer the CrossClimates or Vectors over the EcoContacts or P Zeros.
JohnWest said:
Does anyone have any experience/feedback on Continental Winter Contact TS 850T? Thanks.
Yep fitted these to my car 2 weeks ago. Seem a good all rounder - but note that in some sizes, TS860 has replaced this model. I couldn't get the latest version in required sizes unfortunately.Woke up to -0.5°C so decided that today was the day. Winter alloys protected on the rear with Bilt Hamber Dynax UC and Auto Balm on the face. Immediate after fitting my first impression was that the ride was a bit firmer and they are a bit noisier. On until mid-April, I expect.
Michelin Alpin MO PA3 245/45/17
Michelin Alpin MO PA3 245/45/17
sly fox said:
Yep fitted these to my car 2 weeks ago. Seem a good all rounder - but note that in some sizes, TS860 has replaced this model. I couldn't get the latest version in required sizes unfortunately.
Had them on my car for a couple of weeks now, they seem pretty grippy in the cold (-5 this morning) and are reasonably quiet. No issues so far, they grip ice far better than my boots do.
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