Winter tyres vol 2

Winter tyres vol 2

Author
Discussion

jagnet

3,050 posts

150 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
But at the same time cars are getting heavier which balances out the increasing tyre width. Plus manufacturers are getting better and better at maintaing wet weather performance at low tread depths. I think 1.6mm is fine as it stands. There's enough people that fail to change at that depth without increasing it.

Graveworm

2,814 posts

19 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
jagnet said:
But at the same time cars are getting heavier which balances out the increasing tyre width. Plus manufacturers are getting better and better at maintaing wet weather performance at low tread depths. I think 1.6mm is fine as it stands. There's enough people that fail to change at that depth without increasing it.
Unless you drive to countries where it's 3mm for example or where they have mandatory winter tyres.

jagnet

3,050 posts

150 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
Of course, local regulations apply although somewhat complicated by requirements varying depending on whether or not there is snow and ice present.

I can see those regulations changing in the future though due to environmental concerns over early disposal of otherwise serviceable tyres. Michelin for example are promoting the snow performance even when worn on their Alpin 6, which is somewhat wasted by regulatory minimum tread depth requirements.

Evanivitch

5,012 posts

70 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
RicksAlfas said:
True. For a small country we have massively diverse weather conditions. Around me (West Yorkshire) the police use Goodyear 4 Seasons on their local cars and the supermarket delivery vans swap to winter tyres. You see plenty of private cars on all seasons or winters too. But I would imagine 200 miles south this would not be the case. We will never get a national policy because of it which is why it will have to be an individual choice depending on where you live, when you have to drive and so on.
Perhaps we don't need a national policy, but if insurance companies begin to see a trend in cars without winter/all-season tyres having more incidents then we might see the market make the first move. This could easily be reflected in your post code too.

Pica-Pica

6,194 posts

32 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
Perhaps we don't need a national policy, but if insurance companies begin to see a trend in cars without winter/all-season tyres having more incidents then we might see the market make the first move. This could easily be reflected in your post code too.
But if the post code is anything like weather forecast that won’t help. Would the post code be where the accident occurred or where the car was registered? No doubt an algorithm could be generated (or added into existing insurance algorithm).

jagnet

3,050 posts

150 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
Conversely, cars with winter tyres may be perceived as an increased insurance risk as owners are more likely to drive in snow rather than leave the car at home.

Not sure I'd want to go down the insurance risk route.

FiF

36,256 posts

199 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
Davie said:
It's funny how ture attitude varies so much. On one hand you'll see an old Focus or Clio or similar wearing premium winter tyres then you'll see something like a BMW 535d sat on nigh on bald budget tyres. I honestly cannot believe how lax the UK is when it comes to tyres and given the huge difference they make to how a car drives and stops, it's mind blowing that insurers don't care what you put on. BMW 140i running Triangles at 2mm, in winter... no problem sir, you crack on.
I accept the argument of the examples above on worn budget tyres. There's another dimension to this which is company cars and firms / leasing companies trying to squeeze costs. Maybe it's better these days since I moved from CC to my own vehicles, but I've certainly presented a company vehicle for new tyres at a point where if it were mine they would have been changed long before only for the lease company preferred tyre supplier to refuse. The tyres were according to my measurements not even 2mm, but his argument that as the 1.6mm wear bars were not quite flush he was wasting his time, so he didn't even measure them.

I went to another branch the next week after a bit of (cough) 'activity' on a fairly abrasive surface wink and this time they were changed. Complaint to company fleet manager was met with a shrug.

Having said that whilst I was in getting them changed there was an Audi in the next bay getting some completely bald tyres removed!

Evanivitch

5,012 posts

70 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
Pica-Pica said:
Evanivitch said:
Perhaps we don't need a national policy, but if insurance companies begin to see a trend in cars without winter/all-season tyres having more incidents then we might see the market make the first move. This could easily be reflected in your post code too.
But if the post code is anything like weather forecast that won’t help. Would the post code be where the accident occurred or where the car was registered? No doubt an algorithm could be generated (or added into existing insurance algorithm).
The data would point to where the car was registered. So a Northern post code might be more at risk of a winter accident than a southern one.

It's a fair point that winter tyres might encourage driving that otherwise wouldn't happen, but only the insurance company data could determine that.

Ron99

1,146 posts

29 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
mstrbkr said:
Not just insurers, you'd think the transport secretary would be on the case making sure people had quality tyres on.
Unfortunately, forcing the use of 'safe' tyres would result in manufacturers producing tyres which meet some official test and gaming the system just as car manufacturers do for CO2 emissions.
We would be offered tyres with brilliant 'on paper' abilities which were mediocre on roads.

Most decent winter tyres only achieve a 'C' rating for wet grip and most decent all-season tyres achieve 'B'. They would probably be deemed 'inadequate' and we would all have to drive with tyres which were 'A' rated.
Another thing to consider is that premium brands try to make their tyres retain good performance throughout the tread wear compared to cheaper tyres which can see significant declines in performance even with only slight wear.

But don't worry, my local tyre place can fit you A-wet-rated weird-name tyres for £45 apiece all-inclusive.

Ron99

1,146 posts

29 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
Davie said:
….. I ran the 225/40/18 Rainsports on her car to 3mm and even at that, it was lethal in the wet.....
Rainsports seem to be highly praised by many on here. I'm yet to be convinced that they're all-conquering bargains.

ruprechtmonkeyboy

585 posts

35 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
Pica-Pica said:
Evanivitch said:
Perhaps we don't need a national policy, but if insurance companies begin to see a trend in cars without winter/all-season tyres having more incidents then we might see the market make the first move. This could easily be reflected in your post code too.
But if the post code is anything like weather forecast that won’t help. Would the post code be where the accident occurred or where the car was registered? No doubt an algorithm could be generated (or added into existing insurance algorithm).
The data would point to where the car was registered. So a Northern post code might be more at risk of a winter accident than a southern one.

It's a fair point that winter tyres might encourage driving that otherwise wouldn't happen, but only the insurance company data could determine that.
Works both ways tbh. How about the people that think it's ok to drive on winter tyres in summer? That is something that the manufacturers definitely don't advise!

Ron99

1,146 posts

29 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
Works both ways tbh. How about the people that think it's ok to drive on winter tyres in summer? That is something that the manufacturers definitely don't advise!
Ironically, I think winter tyres in summer are safer than summer tyres in winter.

Evanivitch

5,012 posts

70 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
Ron99 said:
ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
Works both ways tbh. How about the people that think it's ok to drive on winter tyres in summer? That is something that the manufacturers definitely don't advise!
Ironically, I think winter tyres in summer are safer than summer tyres in winter.
That would be correct. I assume they wear far worse in the summer temperatures.

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Summer-VS-Win...

ruprechtmonkeyboy

585 posts

35 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
Ron99 said:
ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
Works both ways tbh. How about the people that think it's ok to drive on winter tyres in summer? That is something that the manufacturers definitely don't advise!
Ironically, I think winter tyres in summer are safer than summer tyres in winter.
That would be correct. I assume they wear far worse in the summer temperatures.

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Summer-VS-Win...
Bridgestone don't recommend it, not sure about other manufacturers.

https://www.bridgestonetire.com/tread-and-trend/dr...

RicksAlfas

10,172 posts

192 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
Ron99 said:
Ironically, I think winter tyres in summer are safer than summer tyres in winter.
Yes, would agree with that.

The problem is for some reason people get bogged down in absolutes. Every tyre is a compromise at some point so just choose the one you are happy with. I don’t know why there is the need for so much teeth gnashing!

Evanivitch

5,012 posts

70 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
Bridgestone don't recommend it, not sure about other manufacturers.

https://www.bridgestonetire.com/tread-and-trend/dr...
Of course. But they reasons they give only further enforce the previous comment that winters all year round is probably safer than summers all year round.

Graveworm

2,814 posts

19 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
Of course. But they reasons they give only further enforce the previous comment that winters all year round is probably safer than summers all year round.
Why? The vast majority of driving happens when summers are safer as do most accidents. For one tyre all year summers are clearly mathematically the safest being better for most of the time despite being significantly worse for some. All seasons will come closer and winters bring up the rear. Of course, if an individual priority is for snow and very cold weather performance that's a different matter.

Evanivitch

5,012 posts

70 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
Graveworm said:
Why? The vast majority of driving happens when summers are safer as do most accidents. For one tyre all year summers are clearly mathematically the safest being better for most of the time despite being significantly worse for some. All seasons will come closer and winters bring up the rear. Of course, if an individual priority is for snow and very cold weather performance that's a different matter.
I think you've misunderstood what winter tyres are.

Winter tyres often give better performance in the wet and at temperatures below 8C. So October/November through to March/April (especially early mornings) temperatures and many areas seeing 50% of days having rain.

The point being, the performance of a winter tyre is perhaps 10% worse in dry and warm, bit the performance of a summer tyre in cold and wet is significantly worse.

Graveworm

2,814 posts

19 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
Evanivitch said:
I think you've misunderstood what winter tyres are.

Winter tyres often give better performance in the wet and at temperatures below 8C. So October/November through to March/April (especially early mornings) temperatures and many areas seeing 50% of days having rain.

The point being, the performance of a winter tyre is perhaps 10% worse in dry and warm, bit the performance of a summer tyre in cold and wet is significantly worse.
I kind of understand and have been running both for many years,
Summer tyres give significantly better performance in the rain unless it's also very cold. Not sure where you get the always better in the wet from,
Winters give better wet performance when the AVERAGE is below 7 or at spot temperatures below 3 depending on which manufacturer you ask and that's about the same thing in most cases.

This was at 15 degrees.
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Summer-All-Se...
And this just over 7
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/accessories-tyres/93...


Edited by Graveworm on Saturday 16th November 16:48

Kawasicki

6,587 posts

183 months

Saturday 16th November
quotequote all
From my experience as a tyre developer/tester summer tyres generally have more grip than winter tyres, even at temperatures below 7C. On snow winter tyres have hugely more grip.

You can rig tyre tests to show otherwise, though. Picking a very smooth/slick friction surface will often get a better result for winter tyres.